🚀 go-pugleaf

In the referenced article, Joe Buck <jbuck@epimass.UUCP> writes:
>If you're a Eunice user, and you keep your news in /usr/spool/news,
>you can't have five-part newsgroups such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest
>(do I see Erik Fair's work in that name?).

You do NOT. I don't like that name any better than you do (at least not
the "digest" part), but I have no alternative that would be acceptable
to the USENET community. Concerning depth, I see no reason why we
shouldn't go arbitrarily deep when it appears to be appropriate, and in
the cited case, it is appropriate. One day, I hope that someone writes
an interface that views the USENET name-space as a tree (which it is),
and plays depth games of one sort or another. It would be an
interesting change from the current paradigm, anyway...

As for the problem, since this is a VMS limitation (and therefore
unlikely to change soon), you should go to some type of mapping system.
Messy, I know, but I don't think that we should allow the limitations
of VMS systems to hinder the USENET, any more than I think that we
should allow the limitations of, say, B news 2.9 sites to hinder USENET.

I'm somewhat surprised that Eunice didn't encounter this problem and
solve it already. Did Kashtan just work around it all over?

Does MS/DOS have this problem too? If so, I'd be interested to know
what Lauren Weinstein did in UULINK. And how about VM/CMS? There was
something about this sort of problem in that ";login:" article about the
netnews implementation for VM/CMS that Princeton did...

	Erik E. Fair	ucbvax!fair	fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu

In article <1082@epimass.UUCP> jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes:
>If you're a Eunice user, and you keep your news in /usr/spool/news,
>you can't have five-part newsgroups such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest
>(do I see Erik Fair's work in that name?).  This is because on VMS,
>the directory name would be 
>
>	DISK:[EUNICE.USR.SPOOL.NEWS.COMP.SYS.IBM.PC.DIGEST]
>
>and VMS only allows subdirectories to be eight levels deep.

   Perhaps you can get around this by defining a logical name for a
directory such that the top level newsgroups will be the first level of
sub-directory, e.g.

$ assign/translation=conceal  _hsc000$dua0:[eunice.usr.spool.news.]  news
(note:		 use physical ^^^ device name       	    need ^ that .)

Then  news:[comp], news:[comp.sys], etc. would be the newsgroup locations,
and you can then have groups up to 8 levels deep.  I'm not too familiar
with the Eunice parts of the news software, but I presume that somehow
SPOOLDIR could be defined using a NEWS: logical name like this (/news/ ?)

...Rick			perry@vu-vlsi.UUCP, perry@vuvaxcom.BITNET

Dr. Rick Perry, Department of Electrical Engineering
Villanova University, Villanova, PA 19085, 215-645-4224

In article <1082@epimass.UUCP> jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes:
>>If you're a Eunice user, and you keep your news in /usr/spool/news,
>>you can't have five-part newsgroups such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest
>>... This is because on VMS, the directory name would be 
>>
>>	DISK:[EUNICE.USR.SPOOL.NEWS.COMP.SYS.IBM.PC.DIGEST]
>>
>>and VMS only allows subdirectories to be eight levels deep.

In article <724@vu-vlsi.UUCP> perry@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Rick Perry) writes:
>   Perhaps you can get around this by defining a logical name for a
>directory such that the top level newsgroups will be the first level of
>sub-directory, e.g.
>
>$ assign/translation=conceal  _hsc000$dua0:[eunice.usr.spool.news.]  news
>(note:		 use physical ^^^ device name       	    need ^ that .)
>
>Then  news:[comp], news:[comp.sys], etc. would be the newsgroup locations,
>and you can then have groups up to 8 levels deep.  I'm not too familiar
>with the Eunice parts of the news software, but I presume that somehow
>SPOOLDIR could be defined using a NEWS: logical name like this (/news/ ?)

Unfortunately, Eunice can't deal with rooted logical names correctly
(well, at least it's a documented bug -- maybe it will be fixed in
the new version).  Eunice does a fairly complete job of emulating
4.1bsd, by the way; the #ifdefs for VMS in the code don't really
change that much.  They emulated the system calls and then used
roughly the same source code as Berkeley did for the utilities.  You
don't notice you're not on Unix (other than the different way
typeahead is done by the VMS terminal driver) until you hit an edge
(like trying to create a nineth-level directory).  

So what am I going to do about it?  Nothing!  Eunice news sites have
two options: define SPOOLDIR to be /spool/news or something like
that, or use an alias (comp.sys.ibm-pc.digest is probably best).


-- 
- Joe Buck    {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
	      seismo!epiwrl!epimass!jbuck

The the new (4.3 BSD) Eunice has symbolic links. It's too bad more
people don't have it since it allows easy solution of the too deep
directory problem.

I haven't tried it, but it might be possible to move the bin, etc, lib,
and usr directories from dua0:[eunice] to dua0:[000000]. If successful,
you could define usr to be dua0:[usr.] instead of dua0:[eunice.usr.].
This would let you get one level deeper (and makes the previously
mentioned six part ibm name work).

		Craig

In article <1094@epimass.UUCP> jbuck@epimass.UUCP (Joe Buck) writes:
>So what am I going to do about it?  Nothing!  Eunice news sites have
>two options: define SPOOLDIR to be /spool/news or something like
>that, or use an alias (comp.sys.ibm-pc.digest is probably best).

NOTE: if you use the "alias" approach, be sure that your site is only a
"leaf" node of the network (that is, you only have one netnews
neighbor), so that this change does not propagate out onto the
network.

	Erik E. Fair	ucbvax!fair	fair@ucbarpa.berkeley.edu

In article <18575@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> leres@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Craig Leres) writes:
>The the new (4.3 BSD) Eunice has symbolic links. It's too bad more
>people don't have it since it allows easy solution of the too deep
>directory problem.

Is it really a 4.3BSD version of Eunice, or just Eunice version 4.3?
There's a difference, you know.  Eunice version 4.2 looks like
4.1bsd, NOT like 4.2.

What other differences are there?  What is its release status?  Why
does Wollongong send me hefty software maintenance bills but not let
us know about new releases?  (Just got another bill last week).

Has anyone brought up 2.11 news under 4.3 Eunice yet?  (You could
get rid of those fake symbolic links I put in there).
-- 
- Joe Buck    {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
	      seismo!epiwrl!epimass!jbuck

In article <18577@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> fair@ucbarpa.Berkeley.EDU (Erik E. Fair) writes:
>NOTE: if you use the "alias" approach, be sure that your site is only a
>"leaf" node of the network (that is, you only have one netnews
>neighbor), so that this change does not propagate out onto the
>network.

Certainly.  Of course, anyone who would use a Eunice site to feed
other sites, given the lethargic sluggishness and unreliability
of Eunice systems, is a true masochist.

-- 
- Joe Buck    {hplabs,ihnp4,sun,ames}!oliveb!epimass!jbuck
	      seismo!epiwrl!epimass!jbuck

In article <724@vu-vlsi.UUCP>, perry@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Rick Perry) writes:
< >the directory name would be 
< >	DISK:[EUNICE.USR.SPOOL.NEWS.COMP.SYS.IBM.PC.DIGEST]
< >and VMS only allows subdirectories to be eight levels deep.
<    Perhaps you can get around this by defining a logical name for a
< directory such that the top level newsgroups will be the first level of
< sub-directory, e.g.
< $ assign/translation=conceal  _hsc000$dua0:[eunice.usr.spool.news.]  news
< 
< Then  news:[comp], news:[comp.sys], etc. would be the newsgroup locations,
< and you can then have groups up to 8 levels deep.  I'm not too familiar
< with the Eunice parts of the news software, but I presume that somehow
< SPOOLDIR could be defined using a NEWS: logical name like this (/news/ ?)

This works fine under DCL.

I tried it under Eunice -- a bust.  Yes, I created a system logical name and
used assign/trans=conceal.  Yes, I put the name in sys$system:root.  Eunice
"knew" what the logical name meant but still refused to go or make directories
deeper than 8 levels relative to the device top level directory [0,0].  She
would go one level deeper but no more in accessing directories put there
using DCL IF she was given a full UNIX pathname, but I couldn't cd into
those directories.  Also a "pwd" would print out the pathname as it would
have if the logical name had never been used.  Apparently, Eunice translates
concealed logical names too.  <sigh>

Probably better to have [news] be an actual top level directory on the
disk.  Eunice can handle that just fine.

< ...Rick			perry@vu-vlsi.UUCP, perry@vuvaxcom.BITNET
< Dr. Rick Perry, Department of Electrical Engineering
< Villanova University, Villanova, PA 19085, 215-645-4224
-- 
|------------dan levy------------|  Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa,
|         an engihacker @        |		vax135}!ttrdc!ttrda!levy
| at&t computer systems division |  Disclaimer:  try datclaimer.
|--------skokie, illinois--------|

Eunice 4.3 is indeed 4.3bsd!  The version that I gave to Wollongong is based
on the 4.3bsd-beta release and they are, at this very moment, bringing up the
"official" 4.3bsd release.
David

In article <18509@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>  Erik E. Fair  writes:
>>If you're a Eunice user, and you keep your news in /usr/spool/news,
>>you can't have five-part newsgroups such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.digest

>Does MS/DOS have this problem too? If so, I'd be interested to know
>what Lauren Weinstein did in UULINK. 

Messy-Dos does not have a depth limitation.  It can get somewhat slow
when you get very deep though... but I've run 14 or 15 levels without
problems, and there's no theoretical reason that I know of that you
can't go deeper.



-- 

Bdale Garbee, N3EUA		phone: 303/593-9828 h, 303/590-2868 w
uucp: {bellcore,crash,hp-lsd,hpcsma,ncc,pitt,usafa,vixie}!winfree!bdale
fido: sysop of 128/19		packet: n3eua @ k0hoa, Colorado Springs

Hey guys,

	I am absolutely sick of these messages talking about 5-part
names.  Can't somebody talk about something intelligent about EUNICE?
This 5-part stuff has been going on for ages.

				- Stephen

I'm not sure if I want to know this, but just what is the reason
that VMS cannot handle >8 levels of directories?  Is it really that
impossible to change?

Surely even VMS users must feel this is an annoyance, too.
Particularly, with the larger and larger file systems one finds on
VAXen these days, it seems surprising that DEC never fixed (uhh,
changed) this.

Perhaps it is coming.  After all, the last major release of VMS did
increase the name space substantially (which was very helpful to
Eunice).

(Please do not flame one way or the other about the rest of the VMS
file system.  I have no wish to hear another UNIX vs VMS debate.)

Don Libes       {seismo,mimsy}!nbs-amrf!libes

+---- Bdale Garbee writes the following in article <31@winfree.UUCP> ----
| >Does MS/DOS have this problem too?   [ pathname length limits  jmp]
| 
| Messy-Dos does not have a depth limitation.  ... I've run 14 or 15
| levels without problems, and there's no theoretical reason that I
| know of that you can't go deeper.
| 
| Bdale Garbee, N3EUA
+----

MS-DOS limits a pathname to 60 characters MAX.  C:/usr/plocher/file.dat
uses up 15 characters for the pathname part (plus 8 for a filename).
MS-DOS Tech ref manual, section 6, look at the chdir function for
documentation - This is from memory, so the man page reference may
be the wrong one to quote.


-- 
 John Plocher		UUCP: <backbone>!uwvax!uwmacc!hobbes!plocher
==============      Internet: plocher%hobbes.UUCP@uwvax.WISC.EDU
FidoNet: 121/0	      BITNET: uwvax!uwmacc!hobbes!plocher@psuvax1

In article <31@winfree.UUCP> bdale@winfree.UUCP (Bdale Garbee) writes:
>Messy-Dos does not have a depth limitation.  It can get somewhat slow
>when you get very deep though... but I've run 14 or 15 levels without
>problems, and there's no theoretical reason that I know of that you
>can't go deeper.

There is a limit on the number of characters in the current directory
path specification: 64.  This restriction is not imposed by the file
system design, but by DOS.  Check the documentation for DOS INT 21H
Functions 3BH (CHDIR) and 47H (Get Current Directory) in the DOS Technical
Reference Manual.  That's the only place I know of where this is documented.

It seems that you should be able to create files below this level and just
reference them by specifying the part of the path that is over 64
characters.  This does not work, however.  If you CD to a directory
whose path is almost 64 character long, you can create files in it, and
MKDIR directories, but you cannot create any files in those sub-directories.
You get the "Invalid directory" error.

DISCLAIMER:  I *hate* MS-DOS.  I only know this much about it because I
	get paid to use it.  I guess I'm just a software mercenary!
-- 
- MacK		Edmund R. MacKenty                                         
USENET:		...{seismo,rutgers,ames}!harvard!humming!mack             
DISCLAIMER:	Who, ME?
QUOTE:		"Nothin' to do but smile, smile, smile." - The Grateful Dead