🚀 go-pugleaf

David Lesher wrote:
> 
> Bored now that c:\congress\impeachment.exe has GPF'ed?
> 
> Come to the DC-LUG/NOVALUG InstallFest and prove that *your*
> OS does not need Internet Explorer to work!
> 
> Why listen to a bunch of yawn-inspiring videotape testimony when
> you can change ALL the icons on YOUR screen, and no federal judge
> will say a word!
> 
> <http://www.tux.org/fest> has all the details. No subpoena
> needed.....

Tres cute! But aren't you hitting the law of diminishing returns yet? Seems to
me that everyone with the intelligence to see the need for a free open-source
operating system, complete with source code and compiler, has already got a
Linux box, while everyone who doesn't see the need is working for or selling
to the DC government and could not be pursuaded to give up their Windows3.1 or
NT machines if you stuck a gun to their head and buried them in gold pieces.
They're honest politicians, the kind that _stay_ bought. 

--klaatu (who never misses an opportunity to chastise the District government
for either having no modern computers, or choosing a monopolist's overpriced
and underpowered bug-riddled-piece-of-filth operating system to waste the
taxpayers money, instead of saving enough on software to literally put a
laptop with a free OS into the hands of every legitimate District resident.)

> 

-- 
    Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
  Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
 Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow.      http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/

klaatu wrote:
> 
> David Lesher wrote:
> >        <---Excerpt...>
> >
> > Come to the DC-LUG/NOVALUG InstallFest and prove that *your*
> > OS does not need Internet Explorer to work!
> >
> >       <---Excerpt...>
> >
> > <http://www.tux.org/fest> has all the details. No subpoena
> > needed.....
> 

> Tres cute! But aren't you hitting the law of diminishing returns yet? Seems to
> me that everyone with the intelligence to see the need for a free open-source
> operating system, complete with source code and compiler, has already got a
> Linux box, while everyone who doesn't see the need is working for or selling
> to the DC government and could not be pursuaded to give up their Windows3.1 or
> NT machines if you stuck a gun to their head and buried them in gold pieces.
>  <---Excerpt...>

Not so.  I work in a large company, and there are lots of DBA's and
Programmers and application administrators that work with software
on commercial UN*X's.  These individuals may know boatloads about
programming, but just enough of the OS specific things like file i/o
and network i/o to get by.

When I hear/see them getting frustrated with their flaky, instable,
unpredictable MS WinXX  PC, (many of them have had Sun or IRIX
workstations in the past).  I suggest that they try LINUX.

Almost all of them know what Linux is, namely a free UNIX for PC's.
But they don't know squat about partitions and MBR's and
/etc/printcap<s>  and /etc/resolv.conf<s> and some of them don't 
know a thing about DNS servers or IP networks or netmasks.

However I offer to set them up with an old 400MB second IDE hard-drive
that has RH5.2 and KDE set up to init-default level 5 and I set up 
the networking and configure Netscape and Xterm Icons for them.
I set up a Gimp Icon. I install plugger-3.0 and xanim and mtv and
such. I enable dir-color and create an Icon on their desk for 
"helptool".  I configure their printers and set up SMBA shares for
them.

There are now 8-9 people in my office who eschew their NT/95 PC
except for when they are sent some bloated document in a proprietary
MS-Office format.  These newbie users *LOVE* their stable reliable
predictable documented open OS!!!

Linux can be on the desktop.  WinXX is actually harder to install and
configure, it's just that most people get their WinXX machine with 
the OS preinstalled.

-Ben.

On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Ben Russo wrote:

> klaatu wrote:
> > 
> > David Lesher wrote:
> > >        <---Excerpt...>
> > >
> > > Come to the DC-LUG/NOVALUG InstallFest and prove that *your*
> > > OS does not need Internet Explorer to work!
> > >
> > >       <---Excerpt...>
> > >
> > > <http://www.tux.org/fest> has all the details. No subpoena
> > > needed.....
> > 
> 
> > Tres cute! But aren't you hitting the law of diminishing returns yet? Seems to
> > me that everyone with the intelligence to see the need for a free open-source
> > operating system, complete with source code and compiler, has already got a
> > Linux box, while everyone who doesn't see the need is working for or selling
> > to the DC government and could not be pursuaded to give up their Windows3.1 or
> > NT machines if you stuck a gun to their head and buried them in gold pieces.
> >  <---Excerpt...>
> 
> Not so.  I work in a large company, and there are lots of DBA's and
> Programmers and application administrators that work with software
> on commercial UN*X's.  These individuals may know boatloads about
> programming, but just enough of the OS specific things like file i/o
> and network i/o to get by.

I absolutely believe it. 

> 
> When I hear/see them getting frustrated with their flaky, instable,
> unpredictable MS WinXX  PC, (many of them have had Sun or IRIX
> workstations in the past).  I suggest that they try LINUX.
> 
> Almost all of them know what Linux is, namely a free UNIX for PC's.
> But they don't know squat about partitions and MBR's and
> /etc/printcap<s>  and /etc/resolv.conf<s> and some of them don't 
> know a thing about DNS servers or IP networks or netmasks.

Hrm, I have to hit the 'man pages' now and then for some of the more
abstruse elements of that stuff myself. 

> 
> However I offer to set them up with an old 400MB second IDE hard-drive
> that has RH5.2 and KDE set up to init-default level 5 and I set up 
> the networking and configure Netscape and Xterm Icons for them.
> I set up a Gimp Icon. I install plugger-3.0 and xanim and mtv and
> such. I enable dir-color and create an Icon on their desk for 
> "helptool".  I configure their printers and set up SMBA shares for
> them.
> 
> There are now 8-9 people in my office who eschew their NT/95 PC
> except for when they are sent some bloated document in a proprietary
> MS-Office format.  These newbie users *LOVE* their stable reliable
> predictable documented open OS!!!
> 
> Linux can be on the desktop.  WinXX is actually harder to install and
> configure, it's just that most people get their WinXX machine with 
> the OS preinstalled.

I absolutely agree. However, this has been my experience. 

For the last three years I have been offering to install fully configured
Linux systems for the District government, for free; I have provided them
reams of hardcopy documentation, stressing the completely open and free
nature of Linux; I have even offered to simply _give_ them a harddrive
with Linux pre-installed and set up ready to go for any 486-or-better
machine with an SVGA card [1]. The system was a clone of a Slackware-based
system that I've had running without software fault for nearly four years,
mostly rebooting for hardware upgrades. It's loaded with security,
firewalls, masquerades, and in fact could have done Virtual Private
Networking.

The only time I have ever gotten a call returned was once. I have never
received any paper responses, other than a rejection of a bid as a
vendor, which was rejected solely because I'm not a commercial vendor
with a Dunn & Bradstreet listing. The only returned phone call I got, I
told the guy that I was ready to give a freeware operating system and
applications, harddrive included, and all he could ask was "what do you
intend to get out of this?" and when I told him "civic pride and taxpayer
savings" he hung up on me and I haven't heard a word from anyone since.

What I'm saying is this, and in fact I would make it a challenge to the
entire Linux community. The rank-and-file government of the District of
Columbia has decided that they would not run Linux, not even if you give
them not only the software but the hardware as well and 100 hours of free
personal training per employee to boot. In my personal and not-humble
opinion, they think they've got wads of money to waste on expensive NT and
expensive NT apps. I furthermore will come right out and say that either
local vendors and vendor wannabees are spending cash and personal hours
profligately spreading Fear Uncertainty and Doubt and paying people off in
a very big way, or the Linux community, myself included, is doing
something incredibly wrong in attempting to "sell" Linux.

So maybe we should all get together and figure out a way to not violate
any laws, and still pitch in ten bucks each to deliver to the office of
the appropriate people with much media fanfare, a perfectly done
ready to go loaded-to-the-gills Linux system - absolutely free and with no
encumbrance or oblication implied or intended, complete with starter ISP
account and ethernet connector. And whoever we can rustle up to be the
best salesman for the product, let's get him on up there too.

Now I want to stress that I am speaking not as a Linux enthusiast nor as
someone who intends to make a jillion dollars hosing the District
government as a consultant (there are enough leeches in Washington
already). I am speaking as a taxpayer who would very much like to see the
city move forward into the information age, from their very-backwards
present position - without spending huge amounts of money for a crippled
set of software that doesn't work well.

Given the amount of information on Linux, the robustness, the free open
source code, the astounding amount of UNIX software on the 'Net available
for the taking, I can only assume that whoever has made the decision to
steer clear of Linux at all costs must be greedy/bribed, stupid, or evil.

[1] 850 meg harddrive, Slackware 3.1, custom kernel, XFree86, 'xdm'
OpenLook 'olvwm' virtual-windows manager, 'PostgreSQL', 'Harvest-1.5'
multisite search-engine and webcrawler, Apache webserver, xforms, OffiX,
and 'tycoon' application-launch buttonbar, 'tcp_wrappers', ACE, Python,
the full Developer's Kit with the stable and proven 'gcc-2.7.2', 'JAVA
developers kit, etc etc etc... of course fun things like the 'nedit' text
editor, yadda yadda... all still available free for installation into the
486-or-better SVGA-equipped computer of the DC government's choice.

> 
> -Ben.
> 

    Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
          Re-transmission of this e-mail expressly prohibited. 
  Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
 Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow.      http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/

> I absolutely agree. However, this has been my experience.
> 
> For the last three years I have been offering to install fully configured
> Linux systems for the District government, for free; I have provided them
> reams of hardcopy documentation, stressing the completely open and free
> nature of Linux; I have even offered to simply _give_ them a harddrive
> with Linux pre-installed and set up ready to go for any 486-or-better
> machine with an SVGA card [1]. The system was a clone of a Slackware-based
> system that I've had running without software fault for nearly four years,
> mostly rebooting for hardware upgrades. It's loaded with security,
> firewalls, masquerades, and in fact could have done Virtual Private
> Networking.
> 

<Excerpt>

The LINUX install fest isn't about any of that anyway.  The DC-LUG 
install fest is to help individuals who are "newbies" and need a
helping hand getting over the hurdle of installing an OS on a PC
and getting the drivers and options configured so they can start
using it.  The important thing is that *IF* they want the help it
is there.

I think we should relax, be friendly, let Linux sell itself.
Dell, HP, SGI, are all selling Servers with LINUX pre-installed.
It won't be long before they are selling PC's with it.
Then the commercial application development will come.

If people want Linux they can use it, if they want windows let them
have it, the whole great thing about GPL software is that it offers
a choice.  Don't try to force anything on anybody.  

Start a petition to local government requesting a law that PC hardware
be offered for a price that is not bundled in *ANY* way with Software
or OS.  Software and OS's may be installed for customers, but the
install price must be based on an hourly or category rate unrelated 
to the brand name of the Software/OS being installed.

This way hardware vendors could even offer free
install and config.  But they would have to offer it free for all
OS's..


-Ben.

Charles Packer <packer@shell.clark.net> wrote:
> It came down to this: Windows 95 doesn't care what video monitor
> I attach to the used Compaq Deskpro I bought recently. With
> Linux, it's a big deal to switch over from an older fixed-scan
> model to an upscale multiscan model. 

Neither does Linux.  Just stick in the generic defaults of
(S)VGA xserver and (S)VGA monitor, and all should be well.
And there is the XF86Setup graphical install prog, which 
took me only a few mins to use today.

OK, you want to fine tune stuff, you need to go fiddle about.
But to get up and running takes little effort if you use 
XF86Setup.  You did read the XFree howto's, didnt you?

-- 
------------------------------+------------------------------
Dr. Paul Kinsler                 
Institute of Microwaves and Photonics
University of Leeds            (ph) +44-113-2332089
Leeds LS2 9JT                  (fax)+44-113-2332032
United Kingdom                 P.Kinsler@ee.leeds.ac.uk
WEB: http://www.ee.leeds.ac.uk/staff/pk/P.Kinsler.html

[posted+emailed]

On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Ben Russo wrote:

> > I absolutely agree. However, this has been my experience.
> > 
> > For the last three years I have been offering to install fully configured
> > Linux systems for the District government, for free; I have provided them
> > reams of hardcopy documentation, stressing the completely open and free
> > nature of Linux; I have even offered to simply _give_ them a harddrive
> > with Linux pre-installed and set up ready to go for any 486-or-better
> > machine with an SVGA card [1]. The system was a clone of a Slackware-based
> > system that I've had running without software fault for nearly four years,
> > mostly rebooting for hardware upgrades. It's loaded with security,
> > firewalls, masquerades, and in fact could have done Virtual Private
> > Networking.
> > 
> 
> <Excerpt>
> 
> The LINUX install fest isn't about any of that anyway.  The DC-LUG 
> install fest is to help individuals who are "newbies" and need a
> helping hand getting over the hurdle of installing an OS on a PC
> and getting the drivers and options configured so they can start
> using it.  The important thing is that *IF* they want the help it
> is there.
> 
> I think we should relax, be friendly, let Linux sell itself.
> Dell, HP, SGI, are all selling Servers with LINUX pre-installed.
> It won't be long before they are selling PC's with it.
> Then the commercial application development will come.
> 
> If people want Linux they can use it, if they want windows let them
> have it, the whole great thing about GPL software is that it offers
> a choice.  Don't try to force anything on anybody.  

Hmmm - I'm not in business as a vendor. The best way you could categorize
me in the present context is as a political activist. I'm coming from the
point of trying to help DC rise from the ashes of a persistent 
decades-long internal rot caused by terrible mismanagement. They're
sitting on a surplus right now, and their infosystems are still back in
the late 80s, and they're going to be buying boatloads of infosystems. It
bothers me that most of those will have software costs amounting to five
times the cost of the hardware. That means that they'll be spending six
times as much as they need to spend on infosystem which will mostly be
obsolete within five years, and that money really would be better spent on
roads and improved services. Hence my ire.

> 
> Start a petition to local government requesting a law that PC hardware
> be offered for a price that is not bundled in *ANY* way with Software
> or OS.  Software and OS's may be installed for customers, but the
> install price must be based on an hourly or category rate unrelated 
> to the brand name of the Software/OS being installed.

Why single out Intel hardware for legal restrictions over other platforms?
For instance, Apple doesn't make any OS for Intel architecture, and you
can't fit Windows CE (ick) on a Palm Pilot. 

Besides, the way that the DC Procurements system is set up, it practically
_requires_ vendors to bundle software with their hardware/systems, in any
event, _only whoever makes the most attractive offer of software bundled
free can win a competitive bid_. And that inherently guarantees that DC
gets locked into NT, with the associated excessive software costs.

> 
> This way hardware vendors could even offer free
> install and config.  But they would have to offer it free for all
> OS's..
> 
> 
> -Ben.
> 

    Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
          Re-transmission of this e-mail expressly prohibited. 
  Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
 Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow.      http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/

Dr Paul Kinsler wrote:
> 
> Charles Packer <packer@shell.clark.net> wrote:
> > It came down to this: Windows 95 doesn't care what video monitor
> > I attach to the used Compaq Deskpro I bought recently. With
> > Linux, it's a big deal to switch over from an older fixed-scan
> > model to an upscale multiscan model.
> 
> Neither does Linux.  Just stick in the generic defaults of
> (S)VGA xserver and (S)VGA monitor, and all should be well.
> And there is the XF86Setup graphical install prog, which
> took me only a few mins to use today.
> 
> OK, you want to fine tune stuff, you need to go fiddle about.
> But to get up and running takes little effort if you use
> XF86Setup.  You did read the XFree howto's, didnt you?
> 

He was probably using Red Hat, they ripped out the XF86Setup and installed the
"Xconfigurator" which works well if everything's already perfect, but if
you've got some sort of problem, it doesn't work well and may not work at all.
I recently had to download an XFree86 distribution _just_ to get the
XF86Setup, which was quick and painless. 


-- 
    Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae.
          Re-transmission of this e-mail expressly prohibited. 
  Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US
 Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow.      http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/

It was the Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:25:22 -0500...
..and klaatu <klaatu@clark.net> wrote:
> Tres cute! But aren't you hitting the law of diminishing returns yet? Seems to
> me that everyone with the intelligence to see the need for a free open-source
> operating system, complete with source code and compiler, has already got a
> Linux box, while everyone who doesn't see the need is working for or selling
> to the DC government and could not be pursuaded to give up their Windows3.1 or
> NT machines if you stuck a gun to their head and buried them in gold pieces.

Actually, Microsoft doesn't have a big lobby. They forgot to buy
enough politicians. Bill Gates' game of golf with Bill Clinton was an
utter failure - just for example. 

mawa
-- 
Some people seem to have a kind of key to life. They've got an easy
way to decode it, or either to strip it clean of everything that
doesn't go with their model of it. Other people have got to face it in
its entirety, or at least what looks like its entirety.        -- mawa
%        
Warkus' Law of Unix Software Evolution:
1. Common sense will eventually win out.
2. We didn't say it would happen soon.
                                                               -- mawa

In article <36C0F951.C02F7B46@GlobalOne.net>, Ben Russo wrote:
>I think we should relax, be friendly, let Linux sell itself.

As it happens, I discovered for myself yesterday that it 
will be a while before Linux sells itself. I spent over two
hours trying to configure the video driver for X Windows --
the horrid XF86Config file, you know. 

It came down to this: Windows 95 doesn't care what video monitor
I attach to the used Compaq Deskpro I bought recently. With
Linux, it's a big deal to switch over from an older fixed-scan
model to an upscale multiscan model. 

I say this as a Linux fan and user for the last four years:
If Linux is ever going to sell itself, the hackers that created it
are going to have to take time off from tweaking the kernel and
get cracking on _successfully_ automating the video configuration
portion of the installation process.


-- 
packer@clark.net
http://www.clark.net/pub/whatnews/whatnews.html

Charles Packer wrote:
> 
> In article <36C0F951.C02F7B46@GlobalOne.net>, Ben Russo wrote:
> >I think we should relax, be friendly, let Linux sell itself.
 
<snip>
 
> I say this as a Linux fan and user for the last four years:
> If Linux is ever going to sell itself, the hackers that created it
> are going to have to take time off from tweaking the kernel and
> get cracking on _successfully_ automating the video configuration
> portion of the installation process.

I agree whole heartedly.  If Linux wants to compete on the desktop with
Windows, it does need to become less user knowledge dependent.  
Windows, for better or worst makes it's success on the fact that people
can install it, and most times get it running with little computer
knowledge. RH 5.2 goes a long way to improving configurations with
detection of sound, video, NICs etc.. and well as many admin functions
now in GUI (e.g. linuxconf), it still requires a user to run them or see
them running.  It needs to do this detection and as much of the
configuration without the user knowing it is happening and just ask for
preference information (resolution, background color).  

Don't get me wrong here, I use Linux and am somewhat anti M$, but if
Linux is to gain large market on the desktop, it needs to get to a point
to where the non technical user "feels comfortable" with it, and that
required dummying it down to where Windows is.

Tom

Hey, I didn't get the info on the installfest since Bell Atlantic's news
server is so utterly awful. Could someone mail it to me at miguel@cr.uz ?
Don't use the address on the top of this posting; I have never been to
Kansas and I have no idea why it is there. Thanks.

miguel

> >I think we should relax, be friendly, let Linux sell itself.
> 
> As it happens, I discovered for myself yesterday that it 
> will be a while before Linux sells itself. I spent over two
> hours trying to configure the video driver for X Windows --

> I say this as a Linux fan and user for the last four years:
> If Linux is ever going to sell itself, the hackers that created it
> are going to have to take time off from tweaking the kernel and
> get cracking on _successfully_ automating the video configuration
> portion of the installation process.

That's not the job of kernel hackers, that's the job
of each distribution such as Red Hat, Debian, etc.
I'm not familiar with others but Red Hat 5.2 is relatively
easy to install--at least as easy as a new install of
Win95/98.

In any case, these Install Fests are well attended,
very supportive, and very helpful for those who need
special configurations or just a basic install of
Linux on their box.

--Greg

> [...] their infosystems are still back in
> the late 80s, and they're going to be buying boatloads of infosystems. It
> bothers me that most of those will have software costs amounting to five
> times the cost of the hardware...

> Besides, the way that the DC Procurements system is set up, it practically
> _requires_ vendors to bundle software with their hardware/systems, in any
> event, _only whoever makes the most attractive offer of software bundled
> free can win a competitive bid_. And that inherently guarantees that DC
> gets locked into NT, with the associated excessive software costs.

It seems there is an opportunity for a vendor to make an
offer to bundle Linux and all of the associated free software
as well as administrative support at a competitive price.

Greg