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Mark Riordan (riordanm@supranet.com) wrote:
: It seems that Symantec probably has a good product, but I am
: concerned about the level of customer support.  I am not used
: to getting this type of runaround *before* plunking down my money.

The most direct and timely support for SC++ is in the SYMDEV forum on
CompuServe.  You can generally get the last word on technical and product
issues from the people who develop and support the C++ product.  


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Weiner                   Lehigh University         Voice (610) 758-3991
Systems Programming Mgr.       Computing Center            FAX (610) 974-6429

riordanm@supranet.com (Mark Riordan) wrote:

>I have learned a few things about Symantec C++ 7.x for the
>PC platform, and I thought I'd pass them along.  

>I am not a user of Symantec C++, but I'm considering purchasing
>a copy.  I started by ordering Symantec's free demo CD of C++ 7.0.
>(Unfortunately, I've lost track of the phone number you call
>to get it.)  The CD contains not a demo copy of the compiler,
>but rather a multimedia presentation program.  When I started 
>the program on my NT 3.51-based PC, it said it couldn't run
>under NT and exited.  Oddly, when I dug around in some directories
>on the CD, I found that \MOVIES\256TEXT\256TEXT.EXE ran fine.
>It's an animated walkthrough of the compiler's features--pretty good.
>(After upgrading to NT 3.51SP2, I can't run it anymore.  Hmmmm.)

>I read an ad in the 30 Oct 95 PC Week mentioning a $50 rebate 
>offer good through 31 January 1996.  
>The ad said to call (800)628-4777x9F85.  I called on 15 Nov 95,
>and they didn't seem to have any idea of what I was talking about.
>I was referred to Customer Service at (800)441-7234.  I called, and
>they denied that there was any such offer.

>On 20 November, I thought I'd try again.  Perhaps I just got incompetent
>people the first time around, thought I.  I called the (800)628-4777
>number.  This time I got someone who apparently had never heard
>of C++.  After some difficulty, again I was referred to Customer Support 
>at (800)441-7234.  Again I called.  
>They again had never heard of any rebate offer on C++.

>Like a lot of people, I wanted to know about Symantec's plans
>for MFC 4.x.  I called Symantec tech support at (541)465-8470.
>The fellow who answered was the first person at Symantec I had
>encountered who knew night from day.  He said that Microsoft had
>not delivered MFC 4.x to Symantec yet.  He expected that it would
>take 3 weeks for Symantec to ready it for inclusion into C++ 7.x
>once it was received, whenever that happens.  Most likely, 
>MFC 4.x will be offered free of charge to C++ 7.0 owners
>as a patch.

>It seems that Symantec probably has a good product, but I am
>concerned about the level of customer support.  I am not used
>to getting this type of runaround *before* plunking down my money.

>Mark R   riordanm@supranet.com
>Licensee of MS VC++ 2.0, 1.51, 1.1, 1.0, MS C 7.0, 6.0, 5.1,
>MS Quick C 2.0, 1.0, Borland C++ 2.0, Manx Aztec C, 
>Computer Innovations C.

I haven't found the sort of thing you describe significantly different
with the other vendors.  It's difficult to get questions answered
anywhere.

The Symantec compiler is fast, and it generates tight code - that
works for me.

On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Steve Teale wrote:

> riordanm@supranet.com (Mark Riordan) wrote:
> 
> >I am not a user of Symantec C++, but I'm considering purchasing
> >a copy.  I started by ordering Symantec's free demo CD of C++ 7.0.
> >	...
> >On 20 November, I thought I'd try again.  Perhaps I just got incompetent
> >people the first time around, thought I.  I called the (800)628-4777
> >number.  This time I got someone who apparently had never heard
> >of C++.  After some difficulty, again I was referred to Customer Support 
> >at (800)441-7234.  Again I called.  
> 
> >It seems that Symantec probably has a good product, but I am
> >concerned about the level of customer support.  I am not used
> >to getting this type of runaround *before* plunking down my money.

> I haven't found the sort of thing you describe significantly different
> with the other vendors.  It's difficult to get questions answered
> anywhere.
> 
> The Symantec compiler is fast, and it generates tight code - that
> works for me.

I use Symantec C++ 7.0.4 for the Mac, and in general I can't recommend 
it.  The environment is nice, and the compiler is fast and tight -- when 
it works.  But it often doesn't work.  In particular, I've found that it 
fails on many projects involving templates, as well as in some cases 
involving multiple inheritance.

This may or may not be the same in the PC version, but what IS likely to 
be the same is the level and quality of support.  When the templates 
problem came up, I had to run the run-around for several weeks.  
Finally, someone in tech support told me to pack up a sample project and 
send it in, which I did.  He was never heard from again.  When the 
multiple-inheritance bug came up, I again had to run the run-around, and 
finally only got their attention by publicly complaining (in this forum) 
about their lousy software and support.  Again they had me pack up a 
project, but this time they did get back to me.  ("Yep," said they, 
"that's a bug all right."  They may fix it in their next release.)

This on top of the fact that their latest versions don't even RUN on my 
computer (a 68K Mac, rather than a PowerPC).  Definately not funny.

I think that they got complacent, since at least in the Mac world, they 
were the only half-decent compiler in town until a year or two ago.  I'd 
suggest you look for a lean, energetic, enthusiastic young company -- 
something like MetroWerks, perhaps.  Just my opinion, FWIW.

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout           Department of Neuroscience, UCSD   |
|    jstrout@ucsd.edu           http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/  |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'

In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960207103505.17546B-100000@golgi>, Joseph Strout
<jstrout@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Steve Teale wrote:
> 
> I use Symantec C++ 7.0.4 for the Mac, and in general I can't recommend 
> it.  The environment is nice, and the compiler is fast and tight -- when 
> it works.  But it often doesn't work.  In particular, I've found that it 
> fails on many projects involving templates, as well as in some cases 
> involving multiple inheritance.

When 7.0.4 was released (we're talking nearly three years ago) templates
weren't really nailed down, so implementing them was difficult.  The
current version (I belive) is 7.0.8 - you can send email to
support@devtools.symantec.com for more information and check on the status
of the bugs you refer to.  I'm not sure how up to snuff anyone's template
support on the Mac is - I've been underwhelmed by everyone to date (SC &
MW).

> This may or may not be the same in the PC version, but what IS likely to 
> be the same is the level and quality of support.  

The tech support staffs for both the Mac & Windows teams have been
considerably beefed up - there are nearly a score of people working on C++
tech support now.

> This on top of the fact that their latest versions don't even RUN on my 
> computer (a 68K Mac, rather than a PowerPC).  Definately not funny.

8 is a fat binary.  Release 4 (the current version) only targets PowerPC,
but release 5 will support targeting 68K.  Anyone who bought 8.0 a year
ago got R4 (with MrC, among other things) free, and will get R5 as well.

We *are* listening.  :)

-Will

---
Will Iverson,  Symantec Corporation
Macintosh Developer Relations - wiverson@bedford.symantec.com
As Will Rogers would have said, "There is no such thing as a free variable"

On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Sym Will Iverson wrote:

> When 7.0.4 was released (we're talking nearly three years ago) templates
> weren't really nailed down, so implementing them was difficult.  The
> current version (I belive) is 7.0.8 - you can send email to
> support@devtools.symantec.com ...

The latest updater on the web site 
(http://www.symantec.com/lit/dev/macpatch.html) is 7.0.4... and you're 
right, it's been almost three years since I've seen any updates and 
almost the same amount of time since I reported the template bugs.  It 
still hasn't been fixed, or if it has, the patch hasn't been released.

> 8 is a fat binary.  Release 4 (the current version) only targets PowerPC,
> but release 5 will support targeting 68K.  Anyone who bought 8.0 a year
> ago got R4 (with MrC, among other things) free, and will get R5 as well.

Well, that will be an improvement.  But you left me behind when you 
released a major release (8.0) which wouldn't run on my computer (OK, 
maybe it would run, but the apps it created would not!) for what -- over 
a year now?  And there appear to be no update deals, either; I'll have to 
pay full price for the new version.  I might as well by MW Codewarrior.

> We *are* listening.  :)

You do seem to be paying more attention than you used to, and for this I 
commend you.  Perhaps Symantec finally realized how many disgruntled 
customers were just waiting for some decent alternatives to come along.

,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout           Department of Neuroscience, UCSD   |
|    jstrout@ucsd.edu           http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/  |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'

In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960216083652.22578F-100000@golgi>, Joseph Strout
<jstrout@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> Well, that will be an improvement.  But you left me behind when you 
> released a major release (8.0) which wouldn't run on my computer (OK, 
> maybe it would run, but the apps it created would not!) for what -- over 
> a year now?  And there appear to be no update deals, either; I'll have to 
> pay full price for the new version.  I might as well by MW Codewarrior.

You can upgrade for $149 - full price is $399.  It's a *lot* cheaper to
get the upgrade for $149 (which includes bundled Java tools).  :)

-Will

---
Will Iverson,  Symantec Corporation
Macintosh Developer Relations - wiverson@bedford.symantec.com
As Will Rogers would have said, "There is no such thing as a free variable"