🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <QwaRz0E6AxHd092yn@momeraths.org>,
Sysop <MarchHare@momeraths.org> wrote:
>Lines: 128

Sysop, I am getting sick and tired of your random cut and pastes, please
mark where you are cutting text out....and don't cut out the context
please...

>
>In article <5huhjh$76m@client2.news.psi.net>,
>os2@mistik.express.net (Mustafa Soysal MS57) wrote:
>>In article <d2YQz0E6AF+K092yn@momeraths.org>,
>>Sysop <MarchHare@momeraths.org> wrote:
>
>>>mind.  Either complain it isn't available "separately" or complain it 
>>
>>Sure, to get the new version, I have to buy Devcon while the old version
>>came with the compiler.  You on the other hand, bought a non-ibm
>>compiler (I did the same mistake with borland and learned quickly) and
>>you are surprized that the developers kit wasn't included....I am not
>>the one complaining that it didn't come with your compiler, you are.
>
>Ah, twisting words again, I see.  I was complaining about your statement

No, you are the one twisting, you have removed the entire part with your
fallacies.

>that you cannot get the Toolkit separately, since it is a crock.  I'm 

You cannot get the Toolkit seperately.

>_not_ complaining about DevCon, you are.  Besides, there is a Toolkit 

I am not complaining about Devcon, the fatcs mentioned about Devcon are
just a sideeffect because it doesn't contain much worthy of purchasing
it.  The issue was that someone was looking for a developers kit, and I
said it is not available seperately, it comes with the compiler (VAC++).
You or somebody else said, no it is available seperately, it is on
Devcon.  That is not "seperately" as a product.  When OS/2 2.0 was
around, the developers toolkit was a seperate product as well as
optionally integrated with CSet/2.  That product has disappeared.

What is part of Devcon might even be just the DTK betas.

>available with Watcom, but admittedly dated.  It is not a matter of 

Same with VAC++.  It is outdated.  I don't like upgrading the entire
cmpiler just to be able to write code for Merlin's new features.

>requiring the separate DevCon Toolkit, unless I want something Warp 
>specific or just want something more up to date.  Even the following 
>statement shows that _I_ am not complaining about it.

You are lost in space...

>
>>>doesn't come with the compiler.  As far as I'm concerned it is available
>>>separately from the compiler, which is a good thing, IMO.  I can use any
>>
>>As I said, it is not.  It is available if you purchase Devcon, you can't
>>purchase it by itself which would cost a lot less.
>
>I honestly doubt that it would cost less.  Novell is another company 

The last availability when it was around did cost less, it used to be
something like $120.-

>that packages things together in their CD's to lower costs for 
>distribution.  Some companies, such as Compaq, even distribute entire 

BS.  IBM moved a bunch of things to DevCon in order to skim the
developers.  The Software Installer used to be anotehr product of its
own.  Devcon just contains a bunch of dead bodies you would not pay for
otherwise, thats all.

>program suites on CDROM, and you call them up to get the program key to 
>unlock it.  There is a certain economy of scale in not having to package
>and mail separate items.

Yeah right, that's why Devcon would cost more than the DTK when it was
around.  They also did the same kind of kill and sell with junk to
HPFS386.  You can't get it unless you pay $1K+ for Lan Server Advanced.
IBM did this to sell their LanServer junk.  HPFS386 used to cost about
$130 as a product of its own.  As such, it could have redeemed a lot of
the HPFS problems of OS/2 Warp or Merlin, and I certainly would have
bought it to fix instability of OS/2 due to filesystem problems.

>
>>Those who bought the IBM compiler with the developers kit included
>>cannot upgrade it by simply upgrading the developers kit since there is
>>no such upgrade.  You have to buy Devcon to copy something off it.  Then
>>there is the question of compatibilities etc.  Now that is what I
>>complained about.
>
>So, you have to buy DevCon to upgrade the Toolkit.  Big deal, so does 

I didn't think you would get it...

>everyone else.  Like I said before, there honestly is little reason that
>anyone _has_ to upgrade in the first place.  Buy a subscription, get the
>upgrade, don't renew it right away, but wait until you feel the urge 
>again.

Paying each time $240 or so for junk.

>
>>>reasonable compiler and have results that do what I want instead of 
>>>having to be tied down to one specific compiler that may or may not do 
>>>everything I want.
>>
>>Well, Borland discontinued its OS/2 compiler.  Watcom discontinued its
>>OS/2 VxRexx or the Watcom compiler.  My compiler is still in the market,
>>and guess what, there is an upcoming forum meeting in the Detroit area
>>which I got an invitation for.  Call Watcom and ask them about
>>java, smalltalk....or DB/2 support, etc ect.
>
>The Watcom compiler is still on the market.  I still get ads urging me 
>to upgrade.  Smalltalk is a separate language and compiler.  Java 

Visualage is a series of compilers supporting different languages on
OS/2.  A lot of the code of the system is the same.

>started as a separate language and compiler.  I bought Watcom for the 
>C/C++.  If I need something else, I'll buy something else.
>
>...

Oh finally, one place where you marked your editing...

>
>>Yeah, there was even another hobbyist who used beta TCPIP developers 
>kit
>>on that thing and set out something to the world that would crash for
>>that reason.....that it was beta....You don't use beta for programming
>>products....And if you have a product that is not dependent on any of
>>the moving crap, then you don't need the beta's for bracing yourself
>>against the next release of bag of bugs called OS/2.
>
>A beta is not guaranteed.  That is why it is a beta.  It is put there 
>for those who are interested in testing it and to get bug reports before
>being moved to release code.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If the 
>hobbyist sent out release code based upon a beta, then they were wrong. 

That's what you get on Devcon....nothing useful.

>There aren't any guarantees when it comes to programming, but basing 
>your work on a beta is just asking for problems.

And why would someone pay a high subscription rate for a CD just to ask
for problems?

>
>>>It's all irrelevant anyhow, especially since it is in the .apps 
>>>newsgroup. You just don't get it, do you?  Take your advocacy bullshit 
>>>to the .advocacy group.
>>
>>Actually, you are the one advocating OS/2....I am pointing out
>>realities...
>
>Actually, I'm advocating a certain amount of whining be confined to an 
>advocacy group.  That's what it is there for.  After all, if only 

No, advcacy groups are for promoting OS/2.  Critisim or anchoring IBM to
the OS/2 realities is not advocacy.

>pro advocates visited the advocacy group, it would be a little 
>one-sided and boring.  I read apps to ask questions/give advice/make 

;) Believe me, that's what the advocacy groups are for, to get these
people off the groups where current users are trying to find out about
problems and solutins.

>comments about applications.  If you really want to blow off steam about
>IBM, maybe you should take it there.  Twisting words about not being 
>able to upgrade your Toolkit, when in fact you can, just doesn't belong 
>here.  Even more, whining about IBM hardware has nothing to do with 
>apps.

Again, you are attemting to twist your way out.  Someone needed a
toolkit, and asked where he can buy it.  I said he cannot buy it as a
product, it comes with the compiler.  You were clueless enough to claim
the opposite...and added it was part of Devcon...That's why this thread
is here.  Being part of Devcon beta's does not mean DTK is a  "seperate
product", because there is no such product.  It has been discontinued
long time ago.

>
>...
>
>>>So, don't install the betas.  Or, is that too difficult for you?  I 
>know >>it is hard to locate the TOOLKIT\BETA directory :)
>>
>>And I said, there is no use to purchase it unless you need the beta's.
>
>Then why your "concern" over upgrading in the first place?  What is the 

If you have read the thread from the archives before jumping in head
first, you would not have asked this question... well on second thought
you would...

>real reason you need to upgrade?  For the silly notebook feature?  A 
>newer SOM?  If your program doesn't use these features, don't bother. 
>If it does, then upgrade it and uncheck the beta box when you install 
>it.  Quite a few companies these days include betas in their SDK 
>releases.  Please, tell me why IBM should do it differently.

What's the use of telling you or IBM anything, both of you seem to be
from the same breed...

>
>...
>
>>>I'm asking for trouble every time I type "make", "dmake" or any 
>>>variation thereof.  Hasn't killed me or my machine yet.
>>
>>;) Good luck...
>
>I could use a little of that on any day, regardless whether or not I'm 
>using a computer.
>
>John
>
>-- 
>//------------------------------------------------------------------------
>// momerath@apk.net                    sevot yhtils eht dna ,gillirb sawT`
>// MarchHare@momeraths.org                 ebaw eht ni elbmig dna eryg diD
>//                                           ,sevogorob eht erew ysmim llA
>//                                            .ebargtuo shtar emom eht dnA
>                     In case of stupidity, break glass.

Best Regards,

Mustafa Soysal

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