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In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown <PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> wrote: 
> Hi there,
> Best app for designing www pages?

Cygnus Ed every time! :)

Ben

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In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown <PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> writes:
>
>I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried all the web
>authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have come to the conclusion
>that this is one area that needs addressing

What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

-- 
Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel       // http://www.pios.de of PIOS
Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/  office: peterk@pios.de

On Mon, 12 May 1997 18:26:40 GMT, Ben Matthew wrote:
: > Best app for designing www pages?
: 
: Cygnus Ed every time! :)

Absolutely... :)

Martin.

On 12-Maj-97 21:31:50, Dr. Peter Kittel wrote about Re: Best App for creating
web pages ?
>In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown
><PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried all the
>>web authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have come to the
>>conclusion that this is one area that needs addressing

>What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
>he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

Dito. Also, working with CED is probably as fast a so called wysiwyg editor when
you get the grip on the coding. If the pages are planned good, it will be as
easy and quick to update as with any wysiwyg editor. Then of course, it isn't to
bad to have full control over the code :-)

>Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
>that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
>only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

I think they can be a good choice for the less experiense or mum and dad who
wants to create a homepage but has no clue at all what all these little codes
mean. But for us who need more advanced pages it is normaly no good.

--
  Thomas Svenson, Editor in chief       thomas@xfiles.se
  AmigaInfo                             http://www.xfiles.se
  Box 63                                Phone: +46  472-708 45
  340 36  MOHEDA                        Fax:   +46  472-716 80
  Sweden                                Swedish Amiga-only magazine

In <peterk.1323@combo.ganesha.com>, peterk@combo.ganesha.com (Dr. Peter Kittel) wrote:
> What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
> he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

Lest we forget, HTML is a STRUCTURED language. How about an editor
that knows this, and takes advantage of it? For example:

	- autocompletion of tags legal at this point
	- a "close current tag" command
	- auto indent & newline insertion to reflect nesting level
	- the ability to highlight tags/comments/etc. in some way
	- the ability to list the currently open tags
	- an "edit attributes of current tag" command that:
		+ lists all legal attributes
		+ lists the legal values for those that take a specific token
		+ adds correct quotes to those that take a string
	- the ability to invoke a validator or viewer
	- the ability to be invoked from inside a viewer

psgml in emacs does this; you need to be able to run emacs v19 or
better, though. I can't. Sob.

> Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

Yup, the web is at best WYSISOWYG. However, good tools (*especially*
validators) can still make life a lot easier.

	<mike

--
Do NOT reply to the address in the From: header. Reply to mwm instead
of bouncenews at the same machine. You have been warned.  Sending
unsoliticed email I consider commercial gives me permission to
subscribe you to a mail list of my choice.

>>>>> "TS" == Thomas Svenson <amigainfo@xfiles.se> writes:

  TS> On 12-Maj-97 21:31:50, Dr. Peter Kittel wrote about Re: Best App for
  TS> creating web pages ?

  >> In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown
  >> <PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> writes:

  >>>  I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried
  >>> all the web authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have
  >>> come to the conclusion that this is one area that needs addressing

  >> What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
  >> he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

  TS> Dito. Also, working with CED is probably as fast a so called wysiwyg
  TS> editor when you get the grip on the coding. If the pages are planned
  TS> good, it will be as easy and quick to update as with any wysiwyg
  TS> editor. Then of course, it isn't to bad to have full control over the
  TS> code :-)

And if you take your web pages seriously, you'll be using RCS (or
something similar) to keep track of what you changed, and when and
why.  RCS works best on files where small changes do not entail
wholesale reformatting: using it on the output of a WYSMBWYG
editor is unlikely to be helpful, since the changes between two
versions of the file may be massive even when only a small change
is made to the WYS page.

Every now and again I come across horrendously bad pages (like the
one where the author had specified that the links were to be
indistinguishable from the rest of the text) and I look at the
source to see how it was done.  In almost every case the garbage
was produced using Microsoft FrontPage.  Don't assume that using a
fancy tool will automatically turn you into a genius.

-- 
Dave Sparks, Staffordshire, England

Dr. Peter Kittel wrote:

> What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
> he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).
> 
> Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

The closest one can get to wysiwyg is saving the page, then view it with
different browsers to get an idea of how the page looks.

But, that isn't important.

The most important things when making web-pages is concistency and ease
of updtading them. How can this be achieved? A web server combined with
a database system.

How does this work?

Each local page (ie. served by your local web-server) should be made in
the following way:

- First add an entry to the database, telling the name of the page,
probably the author, language, and other specifics which might go into
the header or meta tags. And most importantly, the file name of the
page. Perhaps also the next and prev page references, table of contents,
and other standard links of the web-pages. (Part of concistency.)
- Then make a file with plain text. Where ever there are links, one
should write <The Amiga Web Directory>. Why, because the server/db will
substitute that with data from the data base (like <A
HREF="http://www.cucug.com/awd" IMG SRC="awd.logo" ALT="The Amiga Web
Directory>). That will ensure concistency, and each time awd moves, you
only have to update the data in the database.
- Make styles. Ie. instead of hardcoding <I><B>A<B><I><FONT="+1"> make a
style <FIRST>A</FIRST>, which substitutes all that with something easier
to write. That's ease of updating.
- Much more can be thought of; much use of the database will make the
web site easy to maintain, and ensure that new information will be
indexed properly and presented in a way which will not conflict with the
overall design of the site.

Paul K Egell-Johnsen

mailto:paulken4@afrodite.hibu.no
http://afrodite.hibu.no:8001/paulken4/

In <3379C21F.57EE@afrodite.hibu.no>, Paul Kenneth Egell-Johnsen <paulken4@afrodite.hibu.no> wrote:
> - Make styles. Ie. instead of hardcoding <I><B>A<B><I><FONT="+1"> make a
> style <FIRST>A</FIRST>, which substitutes all that with something easier
> to write. That's ease of updating.

Congratulations, you've just reinvented SGML. See <URL:
http://www.phone.net/ATCPFAQ/FAQ.html > for a description of using
SGML tools to maintain multiple versions of a document, share text
segments between documents, and do the kind of mapping you're talking
about.

And yes, it all runs on an Amiga.

	<mike


--
Do NOT reply to the address in the From: header. Reply to mwm instead
of bouncenews at the same machine. You have been warned.  Sending
unsoliticed email I consider commercial gives me permission to
subscribe you to a mail list of my choice.

Paul Kenneth Egell-Johnsen (paulken4@afrodite.hibu.no) wrote:
> Dr. Peter Kittel wrote:
> 
> > What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
> > he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

vim of course!

> > Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> > that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> > only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

Yes and no, the advantage of them is you can easily see what the page will
look like, and they're easy to use, to add links, change tables etc. at
the click of a button, like using a wordprocessor rather than
a straight text editor.
> 
> The closest one can get to wysiwyg is saving the page, then view it with
> different browsers to get an idea of how the page looks.
> 
> But, that isn't important.
> 
> The most important things when making web-pages is concistency and ease
> of updtading them. How can this be achieved? A web server combined with
> a database system.

Or just use template documents into which you load your text, and having
keymappings for your various styles.

Personally I use AWeb and vim on the same screen, firing off a save and
reload when i make a change.

-- 
<URL:http://www.pierrot.co.uk/>                                     Team AMIGA
Thousands of people have talent.I might as well congratulate you for having eyes
in your head.  The one and only thing that counts is: Do you have staying power?
 - Noel Coward

>Hi there,

>I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried all the
>web authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have come to the
>conclusion that this is one area that needs addressing - surely someone out
>there in Amiga land could come up with a decent Web design program that could
>at least come close to Frontpage 97 or Hotdog etc on the PC ?

>Here's a challenge to perhaps Oli Wagner - he seems to of programmed
>virtually everything else out there for the net and done a bloody good job
>too...

>Anyway I'm going round mates house now to fire up his PC and get designing !!

>--
>Best Regards, Paul Brown  // Mailto: PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk
>                        \X/  WWW   : http://www.not_ready_yet
>                             IRC   : MrX/MrX_
>         PGP Key available - Send Mail with subject 'PGPKEY'
>    Member of Team MacSuck - http://www.efn.org/~jerzyw/macsuck.html
>         Sysop of Skynet BBS, typesetter, Miggy owner, writer
>               and contributor to various online zines
>--

>| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

Well, I agree that Olli Wagner could probably do a cool job of programming
something like this.  Or maybe Softwood...  ("Final Page"?)

In the meantime, I like Larry McGahey's "Web Design" program quite a bit.  It
saves lots of typing, enters lot

You can find the program on Aminet.

Best,

Steve Folberg
Rebbi@texas.net
"It is not your job to complete the work
But neither are you free to abstain from it..."
--R. Tarfon, Pirkei Avot

I use golded 2.7 with the bolt-on HTML module. (highlights
various html entities in various colours, has toolbars with
common beasties on it, etc.)

Perfectly happy with it, though I've never tried doing
frames or tables or imagemaps as I've never felt the need.

-
Adam Atkinson (etlaman@etlxdmx.ericsson.se)
Man is a giddy thing, and this is my conclusion

Terrance Richard Boyes said, 

> Paul Kenneth Egell-Johnsen (paulken4@afrodite.hibu.no) wrote:

>> The most important things when making web-pages is concistency and ease
>> of updtading them. How can this be achieved? A web server combined with
>> a database system.

> Or just use template documents into which you load your text, and having
> keymappings for your various styles.

Or use hsc, which allows you to set up standard sections to be included
with a single tag. It also means that you can update a full set of
pages by changing the definition page. When I changed domain names, i
changed one item in the config and all mailto: links, to multiple
addresses, were updated at once.

> Personally I use AWeb and vim on the same screen, firing off a save and
> reload when i make a change.

Similar here with GoldED, except it's all done with a single GoldED
hotkey which saves, runs hsc, brings the AWeb window to the front and
updates it.


Neil
--
         Neil Bothwick, Warrington, England - CU Amiga CD compiler
 Connected via Wirenet - The UK's first Amiga-only internet access provider
           mailto:info@wirenet.co.uk    http://www.wirenet.co.uk
--
I am Barry Norman of the Borg - you will be assimilated - and why not?

>In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown
><PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried all the
>>web authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have come to the
>>conclusion that this is one area that needs addressing

>What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
>he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).

>Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
>that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
>only half as critical what tools you use to do it.

>-- 
>Best Regards, Dr. Peter Kittel       // http://www.pios.de of PIOS
>Private Site in Frankfurt, Germany \X/  office: peterk@pios.de


Obviously our dearly loved Dr has become misinformed as to the developments of
the latest WWW page making software that has hit the market this last year or
so - even if it is unfortunately on the PC !

Look at Frontpage 97 and compare that to ed or cygnus ed ? or perhaps hotdog !

Say no more ...

--
Best Regards, Paul Brown  // Mailto: PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk
                        \X/  WWW   : http://www.not_ready_yet
                             IRC   : MrX/MrX_
         PGP Key available - Send Mail with subject 'PGPKEY'
    Member of Team MacSuck - http://www.efn.org/~jerzyw/macsuck.html
         Sysop of Skynet BBS, typesetter, Miggy owner, writer
               and contributor to various online zines
--

..... A tagline is a terrible thing to waste

Paul Brown spake thusly:

> >In article <1106.7070T1151T1807@froghall.powernet.co.uk> Paul Brown
> ><PaulB@froghall.powernet.co.uk> writes:
> >>
> >>I am in the process of designing a pile of WWW pages and have tried all the
> >>web authoring/design software there is for the Amiga and have come to the
> >>conclusion that this is one area that needs addressing
> 
> >What else does one need than C:Ed? Ok, our web designer likes luxury,
> >he used CygnusEd for our pages :-).
> 
> >Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> >that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> >only half as critical what tools you use to do it.
> 
> Obviously our dearly loved Dr has become misinformed as to the developments of
> the latest WWW page making software that has hit the market this last year or
> so - even if it is unfortunately on the PC !
> 
> Look at Frontpage 97 and compare that to ed or cygnus ed ? or perhaps hotdog !

> Say no more ...

Indeed. If you reread the good doctor's last paragraph, you'll see that
he's talking about *exactly* the sort of software you're talking about. To
claim that WYSIWYG is possible on the web *is* misleading, because there
are quite a few browsers out there and quite a few people with different
resolution screens. That's why you should design the document by a concept
of how it should look, rather than as something which looks good in the
one application you've used to produce it. Yes?

-- 
Simon Brown <simes@amdev.demon.co.uk>   // My name is Brown. Simes Brown.
ADMail support: www.amdev.demon.co.uk \X/ A spanner in the works of Entropy.

Gigantic mutant pies spotted in Eastbourne. "It's an ill wind." says a serious
Gaby Roslin.

Well, from what I see on the Web of pages created using FrontPage 97, I
wouldn't touch it.  Every time I get to a page that I can't navigate
because of missing alt texts, expectation of frames without even so
much as a "This page needs frames" notice (the <NOFRAMES> </NOFRAMES>
tag left completely blank), I always hit VIEW DOCUMENT SOURCE in IBrowse
to see what's going on....and in the majority of cases, I see
CREATED BY MICROSOFT FRONTPAGE somewhere in the comments, <META> or
<CONTENTS> section of the page!  Any HTML editor that doesn't even tell
you that you've missed something as obvious as alt-texts on your 
<IMG> tags isn't one I would depend on to create usable HTML code.

-- 
...cruising down the Information Superhighway at 14,400 BPS...
          ....without a license!          Wolfram Gottfried
                                         !gottfrie@acca.nmsu.edu
  (when replying, take out the "!")       Team AMIGA

On or around Sun, 18 May 97, Paul Brown is alleged to have muttered
something along the lines of -

PB> Obviously our dearly loved Dr has become misinformed as to the developments of
PB> the latest WWW page making software that has hit the market this last year or
PB> so - even if it is unfortunately on the PC !
PB> 
PB> Look at Frontpage 97 and compare that to ed or cygnus ed ? or perhaps hotdog !
PB> 
PB> Say no more ...

*Yawn*

Do you actually KNOW what HTML is?

Clue - it is NOT wysiwyg.  Never has been, never will be.

Programs like Frontpage 97, OTOH, are written in such a way as to pretend it
IS wysiwyg.

The result is crap pages that look awful on all browsers.  Imean, wtf use is
an HTML authoring package that completely ignores most of teh fundamentals
of HTML?  E.g. alt text in img tags, for one very important example.

Whenever people try to create pages with those pseudo wysiwyg editors, the
results are always disasterous, I'm afraid, because the editor is trying to
do something that is blatantly impossible.

TTFN,
Keith.

PS fwiw, I use GoldEd + hsc.

-- 
 Keith Blakemore-Noble - keith@amiga.u-net.com (Mad Dog Software)

 http://www.amiga.u-net.com

Simon Brown (simes@amdev.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> Paul Brown spake thusly:
> > 
> > >Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> > >that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> > >only half as critical what tools you use to do it.
> > 
> > Obviously our dearly loved Dr has become misinformed as to the developments of
> > the latest WWW page making software that has hit the market this last year or
> > so - even if it is unfortunately on the PC !
> > 
> > Look at Frontpage 97 and compare that to ed or cygnus ed ? or perhaps hotdog !
> 
> > Say no more ...
> 
> Indeed. If you reread the good doctor's last paragraph, you'll see that
> he's talking about *exactly* the sort of software you're talking about. To
> claim that WYSIWYG is possible on the web *is* misleading, because there
> are quite a few browsers out there and quite a few people with different
> resolution screens. That's why you should design the document by a concept
> of how it should look, rather than as something which looks good in the
> one application you've used to produce it. Yes?

Indeedy, I use vi for web pages personally... HTML is *supposed* to be
formattted by the remote machine and therefore you can only influence
the final output IYSWIM...

-- 
Save a haddock today. You never know when you might need one.

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Simon Brown wrote:

> Paul Brown spake thusly:
> 
> > >Those "WYSIWYG Web editors" just give their users the false impression
> > >that WYSIWYG were possible on the Web. It's not, and thus I think it's
> > >only half as critical what tools you use to do it.
> > 
> > Obviously our dearly loved Dr has become misinformed as to the developments of
> > the latest WWW page making software that has hit the market this last year or
> > so - even if it is unfortunately on the PC !
> > 
> > Look at Frontpage 97 and compare that to ed or cygnus ed ? or perhaps hotdog !
> 
> > Say no more ...
> 
> Indeed. If you reread the good doctor's last paragraph, you'll see that
> he's talking about *exactly* the sort of software you're talking about. To
> claim that WYSIWYG is possible on the web *is* misleading, because there
> are quite a few browsers out there and quite a few people with different
> resolution screens. That's why you should design the document by a concept
> of how it should look, rather than as something which looks good in the
> one application you've used to produce it. Yes?

True enough.  But a good *graphical* editor could still be an improvement 
over a text editor.  For some reason everyone seems to be hung up on the 
fact that HTML is not WYSIWYG.  So what?  I don't think anyone is arguing 
with that.  But why should that mean that we need to resort to a dumb text 
editor to write HTML code?  I know that HTML is not WYSIWYG and I don't 
care if my pages look different on different browsers.  But please give 
me a tool that can do drag and drop, apply style tags, edit image maps and 
tables, does format checking, etc., AND lets me see approximately what 
the page looks like.


--
Gary Beeton
--