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Subject:      Info-Atari16 Digest V87 #109
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Info-Atari16 Digest   Wednesday, March  4, 1987   Volume 87 : Issue 109

This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield

Today's Topics:

                    Batteries Included bought out.
                             Interesting
                      APL workspace interchange
                   PD yacc (attn: lindahl@brandeis)
                       using LineA instructions
                             Making make.
                        MINIX - STD EXTENSIONS
     Re: Binary newsgroups (was: new group for Atari ST software)
               Word Processors For Non-Computer People
                    Atari postings or lack thereof
        Re: new moderated newsgroup(s)(Really lack of support)
             Converting ST screen dumps to other formats
                 Re: An external RAM disk for the ST
                    Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 00:20:27 GMT
From: dalcs!silvert@seismo.css.gov  (Bill Silvert)
Subject: Batteries Included bought out.
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

I've just heard from a reliable source (my dealer) that on Friday
Batteries Included was bought out by Electronic Arts.  The staff is
uncertain what this means.  I don't know what it means.  What happens to
Tom Hudson?  No more programs like Degas (maybe no more programs like
I*S Talk on the other hand)?  Copy protection?  Another Canadian firm
sold out south of the border?  Will PaperClip Elite ever arrive?  What
will Simon Poole say?
--
Bill Silvert
Marine Ecology Laboratory, Dartmouth, NS, Canada
CDN or BITNET: silvert@cs.dal.cdn    -- UUCP: ..!{seismo|utai}!dalcs!silvert
ARPA: silvert%dalcs.uucp@seismo.CSS.GOV    -- CSNET:
 silvert%cs.dal.cdn@ubc.csnet

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  1 Mar 87 20:29:41 PST
From: <UACE0@uhupvm1.bitnet>
Reply-To: UACE0%UHUPVM1.BITNET@forsythe.stanford.edu
To: INFO-ATARI16@score.stanford.edu
Subject: Interesting

Well, an interesting thing happened to my hard disk this weekend, I crashed
the D partition while using michtron utilities to recover a file.  I don't
know if the latest version fixes this, but I was upset non-the-less to find
out that recovering a file would crash the partition.

As it turns out, only the first sector was damaged, so a simple read rwabs from
drive E (which had the same size) to write rwabs on drive D fixed it.
However, some of the top level files were screwed up, and some of the files in
the directory I was trying to recover from were screwed up.  But I was able to
get drive D back online and save what I could before zeroing it out.  SOOOO...
If you have a bad partition, or get a bad partition on your hard disk, try
writing a little program which does a read RWABS from boot sector zero from a
partition of the same size and writing it to the boot sector of the bad
partition.  If this doesn't work, try one more sector, and keep trying one
more sector, for a few.  Chances are you will be able to recover some of the
STuff.  I will post a program which will do this, soon (like this week).

- Mike Vederman

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 21:50:24 GMT
From: cbatt!clyde!watmath!watnot!water!ljdickey@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Lee
 Dickey)
Subject: APL workspace interchange
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

I use APL on an Atari ST.

    Are there any other APL users out there?
    Want to share some workspaces?

I am interested in exploring ways of moving workspaces.  There are
several different "escape sequence" methods, such as those devised by
DEC, Xerox, and Honeywell and there is another one recently devised by
Iverson himself.  Another possibility is to adopt a conventional
"atomic vector".

We could build some APL functions or other programs to help with the task.
And maybe ARC would would help, or maybe SHAR, UUENCODE, or
other POSIX (think UN*X) tools could be used to help move
thing around, after we settle on a good representation.

The idea is to be able easily to move APL functions and
variables around this network and others.

We would carry on this exploration via a mailing list of
all interested, or through the group  "comp.lang.apl".

Are you interested in exploring these questions too?

--
 L. J. Dickey, Faculty of Mathematics, University of Waterloo.
 ljdickey@water.UUCP    ljdickey%water@waterloo.CSNET
 ljdickey%water%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.ARPA
 ljdickey@water.BITNET        UUCP: ...!watmath!water!ljdickey

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 20:57:02 GMT
From: trwrb!sansom@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Richard Sansom)
Subject: PD yacc (attn: lindahl@brandeis)
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

Sorry to post this to the net, but I've been unable to get through by email.

Attention lindahl@brandeis:  I've tried to send you the PD yacc sources for
more than a week now.  Someone along the way keeps bouncing the stuff back
to me (they don't know who brandeis is).  Can you tell me another way to
get this stuff to you?

-Rich

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 09:52:12 GMT
From: mcvax!prlb2!bernard@seismo.css.gov  (Bernard Yves)
Subject: using LineA instructions
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

I have a friend who has a 1040ST.  As he does not have access to the
net, he asks me to submit his problems :

How does one use the LineA instructions to call the graphic routines of
VDI from Megamax C ?

Probably the answer has been on the net some times ago. Could someone
email me the C  (or assembler ?) code to do that.


                    Yves bernard
                    (prlb2!bernard@seismo.ARPA)

------------------------------

Date:  Mon, 2 Mar 87 22:00 EST
From:  Rodney <Peck@RADC-MULTICS.ARPA>
Subject:  Making make.
To:  info-atari16@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU

  Thanks for all the replies about what the major ST PD software
producers are using.  I've recently received Pcommand (which is adequate
for a cli I suppose...the price is right.)  and I ftp'd make from
su-score.  Make seems to be just about what I've been looking for, but I
have ABSOLUTELY no idea where to get any documentation for it.  If
anyone has the man file from Un*x for make, could you mail it to me?  I
got the beast to run on my machine (1040 w/ one drive (the builtin one)
and a 500k eternal ramdisk.)  I had all the bin files in C:\bin\ (the
ram disk) and the libraries on the floppy (they're pretty big and only
needed for linking).  Anyway, the make program goes thru fine, and
compiles the files and makes a whole lot of .o programs, then tries to
link them, and finishes linking without errors, then does the relmod
without errors, and results in a make.prg.  the problem is that when I
run this new make.prg, NOTHING happens.  It loads, then returns to the
cli or the desktop.  I remember reading about someone having problems
with make earlier, is this related to that?  What was the solution?
Maybe I should compare the sources of my files with the originals...
         rodney

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 21:06:00 GMT
From: apollo!hays@EDDIE.MIT.EDU  (John Hays)
Subject: MINIX - STD EXTENSIONS
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

CROSS POSTED TO MANY AREAS FOR CROSS FERTILIZATION:

I have been following the MINIX group now from it's inception and
would like to suggest the following two items be considered for
STANDARD EXTENSIONS:

        1. MIT's X Window System - for those with bitmaped screens
this would provide a standard windowing system for applications with
a migration path to/from larger systems. (Supported Standard: Apollo,
HP, DEC, DG, Adobe, others [assume trademark notices]).

        2. KA9Q's TCP/IP (Phil Karn) implementation.  This code,
which Phil will share for NON-COMMERCIAL reproduction, implements
a driver for an Ethernet Controller as well as serial line, HDLC,
and Amateur Packet Radio connections.

(*FOR U.S.A, other countries may have different requirements*)

        For those who are interested: Starting in March the lowest
class of Amateur License will permit PACKET RADIO priviledges and
HOBBY computerists should consider getting licenced as with Phil's
code and the available frequencies it would be possible to build
a network for sharing BINARIES and SOURCES for HOBBY MINIX programs,
as well as non-commercial electronic mail.

        This lowest class license [NOVICE] will require you to
pass the following tests:

        1. International Morse Code (receive only) at 5 WPM
           (3-40 hours of study).  You listen to 5 minutes
           (25 Words/125 characters)  of plain text and answer
           a 10 question test on content. (Answers must be
           letter perfect)


        2. Theory and Law - 30 multiple choice questions on
           OHMs Law, Legal Frequencies, etc.  VERY SIMPLE
           (Read a small tutorial).

        If you have questions about licensing, etc. on ham
radio, POST to rec.ham-radio on USENET.

John Hays
Amateur Radio Station: KD7UW

--
John D. Hays, Consultant             UUCP: ...!decvax!wanginst!apollo!hays
Corporate Systems Engineering              ...!uw-beaver!apollo!hays
Apollo Computer Inc.                 CIS: 72725,424  {weekly}
               !MY OPINIONS, NOT Apollo's!

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 23:38:16 GMT
From: dalcs!silvert@seismo.css.gov  (Bill Silvert)
Subject: Re: Binary newsgroups (was: new group for Atari ST software)
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

In article <12621@gatech.EDU>, spaf@gatech.UUCP writes:
> With source, at least, you can make
> (usually minor) changes and recompile for a different machine.  No such
> luck with binary.
>
> If you're going to start a group, I'd want source only.  If you create
> both source and binary, it is probable that sometime before too long
> we'd only carry the source group.

Gene raises an interesting point about the portability of source code.
As Eunuchs (or whatever we call ourselves) we are used to source code in
C which we know how to port between V at BSD.  Non-Unix machines use
other languages.  CP/M and MS-DOS were long dominated by assembler and
Turbo Pascal, and of course many micros use(d) BASIC.  But the ST and
other 68K machines use a variety of languages, and I don't think that
UseNet supports much general source in these languages.  I don't see any
source in the modula-2 or f77 groups I subscribe to, and net.sources and
mod.sources are automatically C.

If there were groups called {net,mod}.sources.{C,mod2,pascal,asm,c++,...}
then I would look for portable source code.  Otherwise, I think that
Gene has raised a red herring (which is properly the responsibility of
older red herrings).

Looking at this constructively, the basic question is whether source
code is machine-specific or language-specific.  If the latter, then Gene
has a point, and we should set up language source groups.  If the
former, then the rest of us are on the right track.  While I would like
to see more machine-independent source code, it may be tricky -- what
about all the GEM calls for the ST, for example.  Is there even a
portable way to search a directory in any language?
--
Bill Silvert
Marine Ecology Laboratory, Dartmouth, NS, Canada
CDN or BITNET: silvert@cs.dal.cdn    -- UUCP: ..!{seismo|utai}!dalcs!silvert
ARPA: silvert%dalcs.uucp@seismo.CSS.GOV    -- CSNET:
 silvert%cs.dal.cdn@ubc.csnet

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 04:32:54 GMT
From: decvax!dartvax!ckagy@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Christopher Kagy)
Subject: Word Processors For Non-Computer People
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

   My younger sister is looking to buy a computer before she begins college,
and one of the ones she is considering is an atari 520 or 1040.  Her biggest
use would be word processing, and that brings me to the point of this posting.
Is there a good word processor for a non computer user (a la MacWrite)
floating around out there?
   Please don't bother the net by posting replies.  Just E-Mail them to me.
   Thanks in advance!
                                   Chris
--
Chris Kagy              "I'm really from Iowa, I just work in outer space..."
dartvax.uucp                                -STIV
dartmouth@csnet-relay.ARPA
{...}!dartvax!ckagy

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 21:44:10 GMT
From: imagen!atari!neil@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Neil Harris)
Subject: Atari postings or lack thereof
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

If it looks like we have not been posting much here lately, I apologize on
Atari's behalf.  This has been an incredibly season for all of us: engineers
working on new machines, software folks working on blitter and laser
support, marketing types preparing to sell the new computers, etc.  We are
also trying to get our new support folks up to speed on all the systems
we're active on, one by one.

Don't think we are not paying attention to all the notes here, flames (pro
and con) and otherwise.  Most of us get onto the net on a daily basis,
except for weekends.

Personally, there are some arguments I prefer not to jump in on, and I think
that Landon, Allan, and the rest feel likewise.

Our #1 priority is to keep the products coming, but when you really need us
we try to be available here.

PS: Why do the signatures from some of us (myself and James Turner included)
begin with two dashes on a line?  Kind of annoying...

--->Neil @ Atari    ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil

BIX: neilharris        CIS: 70007,1135        Delphi: NEILHARRIS
GENIE: nharris        WELL: neil        Atari Corp. BBS 408-745-5308

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 87 21:28:14 GMT
From: imagen!atari!neil@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Neil Harris)
Subject: Re: new moderated newsgroup(s)(Really lack of support)
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

In article <9650@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU>, appelbau@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Marc L.
 Appelbaum) writes:

> Well that's all well and good, but what about support for the 8-bits.
> When Neil first introduced Alex Leavens he said that Alex knew about
> the 8bit.  From what I've seen on the net and GEnie, ATARI is only
> supporting the ST line.
>
> So when are we going to see some real support for the 8-bits???

You asked for it...

Just a few hours ago, I talked to Alex about 8-bit support.  He will be
spending quite a bit of time in the GEnie 8-bit conference (called "ATARI").
It will take him a little while to wade through all the messages there
already, but expect to see his presence there on a daily basis.

A further note.  I had a meeting last week with TOP management here at
Atari.  The topic was also 8-bit support, including ways to get software
produced by outside companies and how to get better presence for 8-bit
software.  The subject has yet to be concluded, but we are coming up with
some good ideas.

--->Neil @ Atari    ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil

BIX: neilharris        CIS: 70007,1135        Delphi: NEILHARRIS
GENIE: nharris        WELL: neil        Atari Corp. BBS 408-745-5308

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 87 14:02:10 est
From: <ram-ashwin@YALE.ARPA>
Subject: Converting ST screen dumps to other formats
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

I'd like to be able to dump the ST screen in a standard format, such as
ImPress or DVI.  How do I do this?  Are there programs available to dump
the screen to a file, and to convert this file into a .IMP or .DVI file?

Thanx in advance... Ashwin.

ARPA:    Ram-Ashwin@yale
UUCP:    {decvax,linus,seismo}!yale!Ram-Ashwin
BITNET:  Ram@yalecs

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 04:52:55 GMT
From: ucsdhub!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!ncrcae!usceast!tech@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu  (Bill Wood)
Subject: Re: An external RAM disk for the ST
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

In article <818@vaxb.calgary.UUCP> brinsmead@calgary.UUCP writes:
>In article <2326@usceast.UUCP>, tech@usceast.UUCP (Bill Wood) writes:
>> ...I am writing this on a 1Meg system with a Ramdisk in the cartridge port.
>
>   Where did you get this marvelous device? Is it the "polydisk" somebody

Yup, it's the same. I have just posted a 'review' so you might look for
it. I forgot to mention their address however so here it is.
    POLYWARE_ST
    5715 Horning Rd.
    Kent, Ohio 44240
You can also get it from Alpha Systems. I don't have there address handy
but I am sure they are running an add in ST-Log so you can find it there.

                Bill Wood (!usceast!tech)

------------------------------

Date: 1 Mar 87 06:40:19 GMT
From: ucsdhub!hp-sdd!ncr-sd!ncrcae!usceast!tech@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu  (Bill Wood)
Subject: Re: Upgrading a 1040 to 4 Megs
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

In article <1315@husc6.UUCP> grunau_b@husc4.UUCP (Justin J. M. Grunau) writes:
>>In article <2425@sunybcs.UUCP> leo@gort.UUCP (Leo Wilson) writes:
>... [he quotes a particularly virulent recent article] ...
>>Come on folks, let's not get carried away.  Please make an effort to keep
>>However, shouting won't accomplish anything...
>Rather, the reason people are shouting, and in my opinion SHOULD be shouting,
>is certain attitudes that we have been getting from the people at Atari -- the
>kinds of attitudes summed up by Mr. Tramiel's remarks concerning Ferrari's.
>
>Right.  No, I think Atari is handling their PR very poorly at the moment, and
>indeed the recent silence of Neil Harris et al. is just a part of it (compare
>the constant involvement of Commodore technical help in comp.sys.amiga).  If
>they do not do some damage control SOON, they are going to lose a lot of very
>valuable recommendations from past customers.
>
The MAILER made me do this....
While I kind of agree with the sentiments stated above. I.E. Being
positive in a bad situation and yelling if that doesn't work. Perhaps we
are mad at the wrong people. The situation seems to be that ATARI went
looking for an operating system for the ST a while back. They needed one
of course and anyone who has programed more that a day has to know just
how difficult it is to write a GOOD operating system. So who has a GOOD
windowing operating system for ANY hardware? Well let's see... SUN,
APOLLO, ATT, APPLE (insert your favorite here). The point is there
aren't any GOOD AVAILABLE systems.
    Well of course, DRI had an engineer that was working on a MS-DOS
clone and they have GEM. At this point I have to say that personally...
I am MAD AS HELL AT DIGITAL RESEARCH!!! Every problem I have seen with
the ST can be traced directly back to good ol' DRI and their buggy
operating system. Why did they bother with non preemptive multi tasking?
Where was their head when they built the memory allocator? Don't they
know how to say 'Hard DISK' 40 folders?!? You mean someone might want to
have more than 40 folders? They must have had a bunch of virgins working
for them. Can you believe it? They didn't even understand priority
levels as evedenced by the fact that they move the SYSTEM stack with
some of the GEMDOS calls.
    The upshot of all of this seems to me to be that DRI sold ATARI
a bill of goods and now won't stand behind it. I can't help but feel for
the Atari folks, this situation, in my opinion at least, is not really
their doing. For example, the 40 folder limit wasn't apparent to ATARI
until AFTER they released the hard disk. I have watched this new group
since the beginning and believe this to be accurate. When they noticed
there was a problem, they were pretty up front about it. It is to their
credit that they didn't hide it. It is a pretty good bet that whatever
ATARI paid DRI for GEMDOG, they didn't get their money's worth. And the
problem is compounded since DRI and ATARI don't seem to work together on
this one.
    The problem is GEMDOS is now a standard, the WORST thing that
could happen is to have a second release that has different bugs in it.
Other than the operating system, what's to support? Two and Four meg
upgrades are readily available. It reminds me of the old Hot Rod addage
'Speed costs Money...How much Speed do you want?'. They have just
introduced several new machienes, these we all know to be mostly
cosmetic in nature and are certainly something we can duplicate when the
memory prices drop. You want a 68020 you say? No problem, except that
the STUPID DRI OPERATING SYSTEM won't let you install it. The supervisor
stack frames are different you know.
    Personally, I think that ATARI is doing a pretty good job even if
the bosses son is a bit of a twit. He certainly should think before he
speaks to reporters. I tend to think that the current success of ATARI
has gone to his head a little bit. But why blame his actions on Neil and
the rest of the folks at ATARI? They didn't have anything to do with it
except to have to waste time dealing with this rather flip remark, which
is sure to be a waste of there time.
    By the way Neil, if you are reading this, I sure hope that you
guys will remember us when you get around to designing you 32-bit
system. I would very much rather give you guys $1500.00 or so for a box
that will work with my Supra drive on the DMA port than have to sell my
system and do the dreaded market search for a 32-bit system. So here is
my vote for a box that can use the ST as a fast terminal instead or
possibly in addition to the 1024 squared system I am sure you guys are
desinging. You might also consider posting a list of known bugs and work
arounds periodically. Also, judging from the number of books that are
becoming available on GemDos, it might be best to get yours on the
market pretty soon or you will miss the window.
    Well...Feel free to flame if this doesn't suit you. I have thick
skin and can take a joke. What SHALL we talk about?
    This situation was best summed up in a conversation I had with
David Beckmeyer. I asked him why memory seemed to be fragmented so badly
when I was using the MTC-Shell. His reply...The problem is maintaining
compatibality with the BUGS in the DRI operating system....

                Bill Wood (!usceast!tech)

------------------------------

End of Info-Atari16 Digest
**************************
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