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Subject:      Info-Atari16 Digest V87 #274
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Info-Atari16 Digest   Monday, July 13, 1987   Volume 87 : Issue 274

This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield

Today's Topics:

                         Re: Smalltalk on ST
                       Hidden and System Files
                        Re: Lost disk sectors
              Re: What's the latest version of the Sac?
                     Aegis Animator and GDOS.PRG
                      Re: Supra 20Meg HD Quirks
                  Re: Disk R/W times for large files
         Re: Bug in Alcyon C v4.14 (not a bug) (yes, a bug!)
                           HOTSHOT CHeckers
                                 UW?
                   Re: Query on Magic Sac status...
                     Formatting options question
                       Gemboot and MWC 2.0 :-(
        SCSI drives--how do you connect them to the DMA port?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 10:06:19 GMT
From: mcvax!unido!laura!hmm@seismo.css.gov  (Martin Mosner)
Subject: Re: Smalltalk on ST
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

(this has been in comp.sys.atari.st, but I think it's of interest for
 comp.lang.smalltalk readers, too)

In article <3987@utai.UUCP> jpierre@utai.UUCP writes:
>
>
>I asked a couple of weeks ago whether or not Smalltalk was available for
>the ST. It turns out that some people at a university in Germany have
>ported Smalltalk 80 to a 4meg ST. BUT... the software is not ready for
>release and will probably be expensive. Alternatives at this time include
>trying to run Smalltalk 80 on the Magic Sac and Smalltalk/V on the vaporous
>IBM emulator. I haven't tried it yet...

Basically, that's right.  However...
1. the software will be released in July for Germany.  I will post the prices
   as soon as I know them.
2. As far as I know, Apple Smalltalk does not run on the Sac.  Even if it
   does, it's a rather old version of the image and known to be quite slow.
   I don't know if the ParcPlace Systems version for the Mac will run on
   the Sac, but it will be comparable to the Atari version in terms of
   speed and price, so what ?
3. Iff you have that vaporous IBM emulator, feel free to run Smalltalk/V
   on it...  But I don't believe that this emulator will be more than an
   8088 with 4.77 MHz clock, and those machines are painfully slow. :-)
>
>Finally, Smalltalk/V seems to be the choice of many with IBM ATs but I
>don't expect Digitalk to bother implementing for the st when the more
>attractive market of Suns and Mac2s is completly open to them (to the best
>of my knowledge).
From our experience with the Atari port I can say that it's normally quite
easy to move such a program between various 68K machines.  Iff Digitalk
does a 68K implementation at all, it probably will be done for the Atari, too.
After all, the Atari is the machine where the hardware cost matches the
software cost best.

>Jean-Pierre Corriveau
>Dept. of Computer Science
>University of Toronto, Toronto
>CANADA M5S 1A4

As I said, I will keep the net informed about that stuff...

    Hans-Martin Mosner
    hmm@unido.uucp, hmm@unido.bitnet
D

------------------------------

Date: 2 Jul 87 14:42:41 GMT
From: mcvax!philmds!prle!nvpna1!dorrestn@seismo.css.gov  (Frans Dorrestein )
Subject: Hidden and System Files
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

Files on the ST can have the attributes "System" and "Hidden" set. What exactly
imply these attributes, when do you use them and what for? Are there any
packages known which make use of hidden or system files? Does TOS treat system
files in a special way?

Just curious,

Frans Dorrestein

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:51:05 GMT
From: oliveb!dragon@ames.arpa  (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you)
Subject: Re: Lost disk sectors
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

in article <8707071803.AA02575@yale-eli.arpa>, fischer-michael@YALE.ARPA
(Michael Fischer) says:

 > I wrote a little program to display the FAT (File Allocation Table)
 > on a disk that appeared to be completely full and was surprised
 > to see the last two clusters (= 4 sectors) free.  Looking at the
 > data itself confirmed that they were unused.  Doing a little
  > ...
 > Has anybody else noticed this before?  Is it a TOS bug?  If so,
 > has it been fixed in the newer ROMs?
 >
 > --Mike Fischer <fischer@yale.arpa>

I've sort of noticed this, in the sense that when a disk is formatted under
MS-DOS it gives more space available (~361,000 bytes) than a TOS disk which
is 'supposedly' formatted in a compatible way.  Now why this is done, I
don't know, but imagine it would be explained in the Abacus book about ST
drives and disks.

Anyone else have a clue?


--
Dean Brunette                      {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon
Olivetti Advanced Technology Center     _____   _____   __|__   _____
20300 Stevens Creek Blvd.              |     |  _____|    |    |
Cupertino, CA 95014                    |_____| |_____|    |__  |_____

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 15:56:03 GMT
From: oliveb!dragon@ames.arpa  (Give me a quarter or I'll touch you)
Subject: Re: What's the latest version of the Sac?
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

in article <2045@trwrb.UUCP>, sansom@trwrb.UUCP (Richard Sansom) says:

> Can anyone out there tell me what the latest version should be?  Also, does
> anyone know of a place in the L.A.  area where I can get some Mac ROMs?

> Thanks a bundle in advance.

> -Rich

>    /////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>   /// Richard E. Sansom                   TRW Electronics & Defense Sector \\
>   \\\ {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!trwrb!sansom  Redondo Beach, CA                //
>    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////

The latest version that I have seen (updates are posted regularly on GEnie)
is 4.35.  To use it one needs the 4.2 distribution disk from Data Pacific,
as only the driver is replaced in the last few updates.

For ROMs outside of L.A., San Jose Computer and B & C Computervisions both
carry the Mac ROMs.  A bit expensive, but if you GOTTA have them...


--
Dean Brunette                      {ucbvax,etc.}!hplabs!oliveb!olivej!dragon
Olivetti Advanced Technology Center     _____   _____   __|__   _____
20300 Stevens Creek Blvd.              |     |  _____|    |    |
Cupertino, CA 95014                    |_____| |_____|    |__  |_____

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jul 87 20:27:19 EDT
From: Mark L. Starner <starner@sol.PRC.Unisys.COM>
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
Subject: Aegis Animator and GDOS.PRG

Well, i got a copy of GDOS when I bought DEGAS Elite --- and I thought
it would be great to put NEOchrome, DEGAS and Aegis Animator all on the
same disk for graphics programs --- No dice!

NEOchrome and DEGAS work fine w/GDOS loaded , however the Animator
leaves splotches and peice of menus and mouse blocks all over the place.
Am i missing something? Has anyone else seen this? HELP!!! I hate
rebooting just to move between DEGAS and the Animator --- and I will
be upgrading to Hard Disk in the next few days, and I hate to try
to figure out a good way around it then!

Anybody have ANY ideas for me?

Thanks

Mark Starner                (215) 648-7382
Unisys Corporation
Paoli Research Center/Computing Resources
Paoli, PA

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 19:16:04 GMT
From: braner@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu  (braner)
Subject: Re: Supra 20Meg HD Quirks
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

[]

My personal impression is that the current day hard disks are
_unreliable_.  As a group.  Now could somebody out there arrange
an Atari ST <--> Micro Bernoulli connection?  (Removable, 5", 20Meg,
flexible, durable cartridges!)  Meanwhile, _please_ do not put any
valuable data on a hard disk.  Use it for work copies of programs that
you already have on floppies.  Put you data on two (or more) floppies
and upload it to some mainframe too...

- Moshe Braner

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 19:06:44 GMT
From: braner@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu  (braner)
Subject: Re: Disk R/W times for large files
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

[]

Greg didn't say what program copied the files.  I _guess_ it's the Gulam
'cp' command.  I don't know how it does it, but apparently not well.
500K in 36 seconds is about 14 Kbytes/sec.  The theoretical max is 22.5
Kbytes/sec (one track per rev).  My boot disks actually achieve that
when copying into the RAMdisk using 'Autodisk' (and the floppy is 'fast'
formatted).  Autodisk copies with a _huge_ buffer (the whole RAMdisk).
"Twister" formatted disks read about 80% as fast, and standard disks
about half as fast (i.e., twice as slow).

But my experiments (when modifying microEmacs, etc) show that, with typical
text files (<50K), a buffer of 9K (one DS track) yields a performance that
is very close to that of larger buffers.  That is with standard
("slow") formatted disks.  (The performance gradually levels off as you
increase the buffer size through 4.5, 9 and 18K.)

- Moshe Braner

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 16:35:15 GMT
From: kodak!elmgate!jdg@cs.rochester.edu  (Jeff Gortatowsky)
Subject: Re: Bug in Alcyon C v4.14 (not a bug) (yes, a bug!)
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

In article <4716@utah-cs.UUCP> sandra@utah-cs.UUCP (Sandra J Loosemore) writes:
>...... . . . .
>a byte offset.  However, THERE IS STILL A BUG IN ALCYON C!!!!  Or does
>...... . . . .
>-Sandra Loosemore
>sandra@cs.utah.edu, sandra@utah-cs.uucp

Take heart!  Your just beginning to find the bugs! 8^)  As I understand it
there are a few more, though I don't have Alcyon C.  Did Atari give you a
list of known bugs when you got your kit?   BTW.  Everyone has been bit by
the pointer addition in C at least once.....

On a different topic, thanks to all that replied about MWC.  Based on
those messages and some personal research, I ordered it through a local
dealer.  I specified 2.0 or >.  Is there a ">"?  Has anyone compiled a
list of no-no's in MWC?
--
Jeff Gortatowsky       {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg
Eastman Kodak Company
These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a
simple and complete disclaimer?

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 12:15:23 GMT
From: ihnp4!mhuxu!cbz@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Craig B. Ziemer)
Subject: HOTSHOT CHeckers
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

Would someone who has a working copy of the recently posted HOTSHOT
checkers program please mail a copy.  It was munged when it arrived
here.  Thanks.

C.B. Ziemer at AT&T-BL
mhuxu!cbz

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 19:40:00 GMT
From: mtune!codas!novavax!hcx1!brads@RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: UW?
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

Is anybody {working on, in possession of} a spiffy version of UW?  I have the
one posted awhile back, but it is painfully slow.

                - Brad Staff

USMAIL:    Brad Staff                       Phone:  (305) 973-5339
    Harris Corporation               Usenet:  codas!novavax!hcx1!brads
    Computer Systems Division
    2101 West Cypress Creek Road
    Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 02:55:24 GMT
From: ravi@mcnc.org  (Ravi Subrahmanyan)
Subject: Re: Query on Magic Sac status...
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

>
>    (a) Software that will and will not run with Magic Sac;

    With the new release of the driver software, the compatibility
problems are rapidly disappearing.  I've found that most Mac PD stuff
works just fine.  Here's a short list of the more popular stuff that I or
some friends use regularly (ie. programs that don't just fire up right, but
work well under extensive usage):

    Versaterm (& Pro), Kermit, Freeterm, Termworks.  Mac240 does
not work.

    MacDraw, MacPaint, MacWrite (it's the shakiest of the lot),
MacBillboard, one of the other '*paint' programs, MacDraft.

    ReadySetGo.  PageMaker supposedly works, but I haven't seen
it. Excel.  Cricket Graph.

    Plus all the usual goodies like Binhex, Packit, the zillion or
so DA's you find around to do everything except give you a backrub..
I've found that for most of the PD or shareware stuff, if something
doesn't work, one can find another DA or whatever that does exactly
the same things, and that works (this is really true).

    In short, anything written "properly" seems to work great.
Things that address hardware directly fail (eg. Mac240 probably goes
to the serial chip), but even there Dave Small seems to have put in
some ingenious hacks.  It's been so good lately that I'm often in Mac
mode for a week or so at a stretch (frankly, the Mac grows on you;
it's everything the ST could have been, and now is - I'm tickled as
hell!)

>    (b) Estimated price and availability date for the rumored
>        Data Pacific Macintosh-compatible floppy drive for the ST?

    Dave said he'd hoped for May, then said he'd been foolish to
say that because he hadn't anticipated some problems.  But he's
actually finished it I think, and it's in the pipeline; certainly
before summer's end.

>Is there any other source for an ST drive that can read/write Mac disks?

    I seriously doubt it.

>Any other information on advantages or disadvantages of an ST with Magic Sac
>would be appreciated.

    Well, it isn't a Mac, so it'll act up and die sometimes, but
I'm very satisfied (especially now, with the newer releases).  Don't
use anything less than rev 4.2 of the driver software (4.32 is out,
but it's beta, so wait for 4.5).  If you have specific needs, like
word processing or picture making etc.  it's great.  I have a small
set of stuff I need it for, it works great for that; most people I
know have found it to work for what they needed.  You could always
check first, but at $150 a shot, it's not bad at all..

                            -ravi

------------------------------

Date: 9 Jul 87 06:12:11 GMT
From: atwell@cs.utah.edu  (Bart L. Atwell)
Subject: Formatting options question
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

On trying DCFORMAT(Thanks, Mike), I noticed a lot of options exist for
formatting disks. You can get the most storage using 82 tracks with 10
sectors but there must be a catch.  What is it?  Can you get fast mode
to work with 10 sectors or does fast depend on a 9 sector format?  What
about 82 tracks?  Does FAST work?  Can you damage the drive (are you
using a bad part of the diskette) when addressing 82 tracks?

Thanks,

Bart

------------------------------


Date:           Thu, 09 Jul 87 10:30:41 gmt
To:             INFO-ATARI16@SCORE.STANFORD.EDU
From:           <FRANK@FRILL51.BITNET>
Organisation:   Institut Laue Langevin
Postal-address: BP156x 38042 GRENOBLE, France
Phone:          (33)7648-7111 [switchboard]
Subject:        GULAM SHELL


I've just got Gulam from Atarinet at UH-INFO. It seems quite a nice shell
but since I have a german keyboard there are a lot of keys misplaced.
Couldn't it be possible that there exists a new version which uses the
keyboard as it is??? I think a lot of people would be gratefull.


Victor Frank
janet   frank@frill51

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 87 22:40:34 GMT
From: mcvax!unido!laura!@@seismo.css.gov  (Andreas Toenne)
Subject: Gemboot and MWC 2.0 :-(
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

Hi !

I've run in a problem with MWC 2.0.
When I use GEMBOOT 1.10, the MWC msh doesn't read it's profile.
I think this subject has been discussed some weeks ago.
Could a kind soul mail me the results ??

    Andreas Toenne
    Dept. of CS
    U of Dortmund, W-Germany

    Mail to :

    toenne@unido.uucp or
    at@unido.bitnet
D

------------------------------

Date: 7 Jul 87 19:55:24 GMT
From: mnetor!utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!watvlsi!rpfeifle@seismo.css.gov
Subject: SCSI drives--how do you connect them to the DMA port?
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu

What pins have to be connected to what lines, what pins have to be dropped
etc...

Ron
--
Ron Pfeifle                        "What time is it?"
{decvax,allegra,ihnp4}!watmath!watvlsi!rpfeifle        "It's the dark ages."
[better get your Oktoberfest tickets now]            --the Frantics

------------------------------

End of Info-Atari16 Digest
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