🚀 go-pugleaf

cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes:
	Well, unless you are a diehard Atari fan (I know, there are still a few
  left), I would advise you to buy the 25mhz 386 now (if you do indeed
  need it now).  Besides, if you want to use it for work you would be
  much better off with an industry standard 386 rather than the TT (if it
  ever does hit the market). The 68030 is such a nice mpu compared
  to the Intel mpu's.

That's for certain.  The context is much nicer!

  [...]
  Besides, who needs another workstation with non-industry
  standard 16 bit slots.

Got that right.

<1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi
(Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds:
	What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are
  very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only
  the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the
  same traditional tracks. 

I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the
small business and home user than loose paperclips :-).  Seriously, the
amount of PC's abound is sickening.  If it's not an industry standard,
tell me what is.  Besides, you said more people supporting one line,
the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this
sound like industry standardization?

(Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) continues:
	I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually
  they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid
  to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced
  it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt
  or something...)

I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too.
Almost every.  There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having,
but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on
other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported.

If Atari's listening, Varsinainen's made a good point within parentheses
above.  I'm not sure if bankrupt is the word.  Maybe lynched by its user
base (excluding the fanatics).

Richard Covert writes:
  Not only are 80386 PC computers available there have been some really great
  prices in misc.forsale for 25 MHZ 80386 computers with 1024 x 768 x 16colors
  color graphics. something beyond the power of a TT, I believe. 

(Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds:
  How come that is beyond the power of a TT? For even the ST is NOW
  available a graphics card with resolution 1280x1024 with 16 colours from
  palette of 262144. And this is not the only one. I doubt a 25MHz 386 is
  any faster than a TT.

Or just get a SUN 3/260 or a Sparcstation, a blow both away.  Much more
expensive, true.  But SunOS UNIX is truly superb.  Also, I know of a few
25MHz 386's that could beat a TT.

Richard Covert continues:
  Also, the ads
  I have seen indicate that the 80386 PCs have 32 bit, 16 bit, and 8 bit 
  motherboard busses, so can use a whole spectrum of IBM PC plugin boards
  (things like hard disk on a card, internal modems, additional serial i/o, 
  eprom burners, geez just all sorts of things that Atari customers are too
  cheap to want to buy!!).

To which Varsiinainen replies:
  What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all
  off those devices for ST's and TT's, too.

Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff.
I've got my 1040 sitting on it.  A huge cable comes out for my external disk
drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk;
I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too
big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff.  Then I've got another 
cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem.  And, finally, cables going out to
my printer and my two monitors.  It's a mess!  If my 1040 were more like
a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive, diskdrive,
and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the
cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody
CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards.

Covert continues:
  So, that kinda leaves Atari and the VaporWare TT/P (for Plastic, sheez what
  a great name for a computer. A Plastic computer. Oh boy!!) for someone else
  to buy!!

To which Varsinainen replies:
 Can't you make up better arguments that ones that are based on a computer's
 name?                             

Richard is not saying the the name of the bloody thing is something that
should be taken into account.  He's merely making an editorial comment
about Atari's choice to call the TT/P the `Plastic.'  I agree with him:
Oh boy! A Plastic computer!

Chris writes:
  Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular
  red fruit <grin>) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can
  actually see and touch it!).

Varsinainen says:
  Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and
  compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival
  MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST
  even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go?

Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST.  In fact, I don't know of any
Apple II that has a 68030.  He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac.  Get a clue :-)
And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics.

Richard says:
  So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari
  that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects.

Sounds right.  When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari
was the most powerful computer out for the price.  For only a few hundred
dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!).
Or something that has support.  Dare I say it?  Yes, a Mac.

Varsinainen replies:
  How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even
  if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI,
  too.

Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy.  You just
don't lift the cover a drop in a card.  You lift the cover, desolder a chip,
patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor
if you don't know how.

I remember MIDI.  That's about the only thing Atari's got going for the ST
line.

I avoid Intel like the plague, but my next Motorola box will NOT be Atari.

Yes, the ST's are inexpensive.  That's great.  If you want it now, though,
forget it.  And support?  I've sent out all the warranty cards I could
from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari,
or a newsletter, or anything.  I wonder if there's anybody back there.
Authorized repair centers?  We don't need no stinking authorized repair
centers!

Just remember:

	(Power Without the Price) = (You Get What You Pay For)

Pipe flames to /dev/null.