🚀 go-pugleaf

->In article <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) writes:
> cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes:
> 
>> <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi
>> (Jouni Alkio) responds:
>> 	What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are
>>   very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only
>>   the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the
>>   same traditional tracks. 
>> 
-> I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the
-> small business and home user than loose paperclips :-).  Seriously, the
-> amount of PC's abound is sickening.  If it's not an industry standard,
-> tell me what is.  Besides, you said more people supporting one line,
-> the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this
-> sound like industry standardization?
> 
We sure have tons of PC's here in Finland. I was talking about 386
specific software and there is not very much of it! The TT will be ST
compatible, just like the 386 is PC-compatible, and MAC II is
MAC-compatible! I think it won't take
very long, when there is as much TT specific software as there is 386
specific software. By the way, I can use a lot of PC- or MAC-software on
the ST, too. The coin (the industry standardization) has, as always, two
sides. The good one is that you can get a lot of software. The bad one
is the dependence on old technology. The same problem is with ST's and
TT's, too - but the PC is older standard.

> (Jouni Alkio) continues:
> 	I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually
>   they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid
>   to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced
>   it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt
>   or something...)
> 
-> I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too.
-> Almost every.  There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having,
-> but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on
-> other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported.

If I have a program for my computer, isn't it available?!?!? Could you
give an example of a program more powerful on a PC (in the same
price-range, not a 386, for example)?
> 
> Jouni Alkio:
>   What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all
>   off those devices for ST's and TT's, too.
> 
-> Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff.
-> I've got my 1040 sitting on it.  A huge cable comes out for my external disk
-> drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk;
-> I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too
-> big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff.  Then I've got another 
-> cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem.  And, finally, cables going out to
-> my printer and my two monitors.  It's a mess!  If my 1040 were more like
-> a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive, diskdrive,
-> and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the
-> cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody
-> CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards.

I like having various devices on my desk. This doesn't mean that I
couldn't use them. I admit that some people like emptier desks - and
it's also practical in the offices, for example. For me, it's a matter
of taste. It's not my fault if you have bought a noisy hard-disk. You
are free to choose. Or do you mean that a PC-case would prevent the
hard-disk from being so noisy?!?!?

> 
>> Chris writes:
>>   Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular
>>   red fruit <grin>) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can
>>   actually see and touch it!).
> 
> Jouni says:
>   Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and
>   compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival
>   MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST
>   even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go?
> 
-> Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST.  In fact, I don't know of any
-> Apple II that has a 68030.  He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac.  Get a clue :-)
-> And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics.

Wait a minute, I didn't write anything about Apple II (and if I did, I
meaned Apple MAC II, of course)! I just didn't like the
speed comparison between A 68030 APPLE AND A 68000 ST, it is unfair! OF
COURSE a MAC II is technically much better than a ST - you could as well
compare a MAC II with a supercomputer... It makes no sense comparing
computers in completely other price-ranges.
>
>> Richard says:
>>   So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari
>>   that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects.
> 
> Sounds right.  When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari
> was the most powerful computer out for the price.  For only a few hundred
> dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!).
> Or something that has support.  Dare I say it?  Yes, a Mac.

What do you relly mean by that support? I wouldn't pay much extra money
for getting some brochures, for example. One fact is, that you are
slightly in another position as I - Europe is Atari's first marketing
area for computers, as far as I know.
> 
> Jouni replies:
>   How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even
>   if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI,
>   too.
> 
-> Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy.  You just
-> don't lift the cover a drop in a card.  You lift the cover, desolder a chip,
-> patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor
-> if you don't know how.

It doesn't have to be so easy if you are a bit handy. It would be nice
if I just could insert the cards in their sockets, but it really doesn't
matter very much for me.
> 
-> Yes, the ST's are inexpensive.  That's great.  If you want it now, though,
-> forget it.  And support?  I've sent out all the warranty cards I could
-> from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari,
-> or a newsletter, or anything.  I wonder if there's anybody back there.
-> Authorized repair centers?  We don't need no stinking authorized repair
-> centers!

As I said before in this article, I wouldn't like to pay much extra for
some brochures. 

*** NOTE: I changed the text "Varsinainen ..." to my real name "Jouni
Alkio". The first "name" was not a name (I didn't know that it would
represent a name, at all...) Sorry.***

				Jouni Alkio