🚀 go-pugleaf

"PAPADOC" <PAPADOC@jimbobs.drive.by> wrote in message
news:81qhp09a6005kdsg7k82fs41uv2vfrt056@4ax.com...
>
> hehe....Well at least you try and defend your arguments Bernard. Your
"friends"
> are too busy accussing me of perversions with my children of all things to
> defend their ideas.

Oh, did I omit the contemptuous insults? My bad. I hope all
that goes without saying by now.


> >I never said they couldn't have it, but not too many of them seem to
> >think its a great priority.
>
> Sort of like the Japanese? Or the Afghanis? Or just about anyone else you
can
> name who labor under oppressive regimes. How exactly are they to get the
word
> out and some support under the sorts of regimes they live? Not sure if you
know
> but having demonstrations against the governement was frowned on by
Saddam.

The Japanese did have some history of self-developed democratic
institutions before the military dictatorship took over. The jury is
still out on Afghanistan, the test is what they do when (and if) there
are NO more US forces there.

> > Its probably gonna have to be their idea if it works.
>
> More examples of Democracy succeeding by force than not. You have to force
the
> ones who have control out of control...no other way around it.

But once they are forced out of control, the population has to support
and maintain a democracy. Can they and will they? One difference
between us seems to be that you are very sure of things that you have
no way of being sure about. Germany and Japan had a largely literate
population and an industrialized society. They were accustomed to
some degree of freedom. People who have not had to make decisions
for themselves can find the responsibility overwhelming. A few years
of shortages and a "strongman" pops up with all the answers, and we
have another Saddam. Have you ever freed a dog who has been caged
for his entire life? At the first sign of trouble he runs back into his
cage.


> > The Russians have had a struggle with it, and seem to be
> >backsliding a bit lately. Actually theirs was sort of presented to their
> >people too in that there was no groundswell of popular insistence
> >on democratization. It was more like the leaders threw up their
> >hands and said "this communism crap ain't workin, you people
> >do it yourselves." I ramble, but I'm just saying that it is not as easy
> >as "taking dee-mockracy to them folks."
>
> No easy it isnt. So? Anything worth a shit isnt easy. Russia suffered from
NOT
> being conquered and having those in control either killed or put into
prison.
> Revolutions tend to be violent for a reason. The Government Bureaucrats
who
> acted like mob bosses when communism was the rule of the day simply
transitioned
> directly to being simply Gang leaders.
>
> You can see this in business when a business is bought out the power
structure
> is usually decimated by firings just to clear the decks and let everyone
else
> know it isnt business as usual anymore. If you dont do that you tend to
have
> everyone shocked shitless for a few months then later on they go right
back to
> whatever business practices they learned prior to your takeover.



> >
> >You are the ones who believe that
> >> those people will always be the way they are, I believe they are the
way
> >they
> >> are because of the conditions they have had to live in these last 300
> >years.
> >>
> >> I believe that freedom will work y'all believe it won't. I believe in
> >revolution
> >> y'all believe in the status quo. I believe that evil exists,
> >
> >I very much believe that evil exists, but as a religious or
> >philosophical concept, not as a strategic or tactical one.
> >So when I hear GWB saying that we are going to "attack"
> >evil, or "defeat" evil it rings hollow. We've got a bunch of
> >bible-thumping ninnys running around screaming about evil
> >when we need strategists and dispassionate thinkers (like the
> >ones being purged from the CIA) fighting the terrorists.
> >WS
>
> The CIA failed for over 40 years to get anything right.

That's a pretty broad statement. They get more things right when they
are not told what to conclude in advance.
WS