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On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0600, "RCR" <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net>
wrote:

>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
>Is this a problem?

I've seen scattered reports of this, but none lately.  I think it
(like most things on Usenet) was blown way out of proportion.  I have
a Righteous 3D, an ET6000, and an NEC XV17+, and image quality is the
same whether the Voodoo is present or not.

RichC
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On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0600, "RCR" <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net>
wrote:

>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
>Is this a problem?
>
>Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
>
>Thanks.

Yes, there is a chance for degradation, and if you cannot tolerate
even a bit of it, then Voodoo may not be for you.  This is one of the
major drawbacks of these cards to some people.  I have an earlier
(about a year) Monster 3D with the 'original' (very thin) pass- thru
cable .  I've experienced this interference - but have grown to live
with it (the games just look so good...), as it doesn't  seem that bad
to me personally.  Moving both video cards to the farthest slots from
each other doesn't seem to help (in this case).  I have a friend who
just purchased an OEM Monster, and it came with a THICK pass-thru
cable.  He installed his cards far apart also, and other than some
brief hash during the first POST, he has not had any probs nor has
noticed any screen degradation (he runs a SONY 17SF, I'm running a
VIEWSONIC 17PS).  Of course, this is inconclusive, but a work-around
is to have a monitor with dual inputs (D-sub mini and BNC) and switch
between them...  If possible, purchase from a vendor who will allow a
trial period, such as Frye's, etc.  This and the 3d-in-a- window thing
seem to be real showstoppers for some users.  Good luck.
regards,

===============
fredman@tdl.com
===============

RCR <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net> wrote in article
<349cce94.0@news3.ibm.net>...
> I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
image
> degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
> 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
> 
> Is this a problem?
> 
> Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
> 

I ran into that problem and it is one of the reasons I switched to a 3Dfx
Rush card. For people that ran into the problem it seems to show up at
higher resolutions and/or higher color depths.

later,
DLN

I have a Righteous 3d for almost a year now, and my default resolution
in Windows is 1024x768x16bit colors.
I am unable to notice any difference as far as 2d sharpness goes.
I've heard on the Usenet that the Righteous' pass-cable used to have a
better quality than Monster 3d...
Anyway, it seems to me that the users that noticed any kind of
degradation were working in unusually high resolutions, beyond the
common needs of the average user.

-- Eduardo

RCR wrote:

> I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
> image
> degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
> 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
> Is this a problem?
>
> Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the
> regard?
>
> Thanks.

I have recently sold my Monster and got a Highscore 3D (~ Pure 3D)
now.
With both cards the picture looses sharpness significantly.
I use a Mill2/4MB with a Nokia 447Xi @ 1280x1024 (24bit).

(Btw: the Highscore uses a DIN-Adapter (kind of PS/2) as pass-through.)

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RCR schrieb in Nachricht <349cce94.0@news3.ibm.net>...
>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
>Is this a problem?
>
>Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
>

RCR wrote:
> 
> I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
> degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
> 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
> 
> Is this a problem?
> 
> Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
> 
> Thanks.

I run 1600x1200 with an Orchid Righteous 3d and can see no differences
with it plugged in or not.  From the sounds of it the Orchid has the
best cable and switching interface.
-- 
**********************************************************************
Anti-Spam measures in place. Remove spam.this from my address to reply.


Chris Villarreal

I have seen no degredation at any resolution or color depth on my
Canopus Pure3d card.

I am VERY picky about such things so I would notice if there was.

Chuck Smith

"Dennis Newberry" <dnewberry@mindspring.com> writes:

>RCR <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net> wrote in article
><349cce94.0@news3.ibm.net>...
>> I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
>image
>> degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>> 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>> 
>> Is this a problem?
>> 
>> Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
>> 

>I ran into that problem and it is one of the reasons I switched to a 3Dfx
>Rush card. For people that ran into the problem it seems to show up at
>higher resolutions and/or higher color depths.

>later,
>DLN

RCR wrote in message <349cce94.0@news3.ibm.net>...
>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
>Is this a problem?
>


I've got a Monster 3D and a Matrox Mystique 220, and I've noticed no
degradation when running off the Mystique in 2D mode.  FWIW, my Monster3D
came with the thick passthru cable, and the cards are plugged in right next
to each other.

Eduardo Carvalho wrote:

> I have a Righteous 3d for almost a year now, and my default resolution
> in Windows is 1024x768x16bit colors.
> I am unable to notice any difference as far as 2d sharpness goes.
> I've heard on the Usenet that the Righteous' pass-cable used to have a
> better quality than Monster 3d...

Well... are aftermarket "better" pass through cables available? I'd hate to
base my choice on which card came with the better cable.

> Anyway, it seems to me that the users that noticed any kind of
> degradation were working in unusually high resolutions, beyond the
> common needs of the average user.
>
> -- Eduardo
>
> RCR wrote:
>
> > I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of
> > image
> > degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
> > 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
> >
> > Is this a problem?
> >
> > Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the
> > regard?
> >
> > Thanks.



--
Access the Absolutely Amazing All-Alliteration Area at:
http://www.erols.com/dweeb/

Philip Poe wrote:
> 
> I was using Mystique 220 + Hitachi CM751 19" at 1152x864 at 99Hz.
> The effect was dramatic (and thouroughly dissapointing)
> It went from razor sharp to fuzzy. Setting refresh rate to 75-85hz helped,
> but in the end, I went to 1024x768 @ 85hz. Minimal if any effect there.
> It seems that the 3DFX card has a limited amount of bandwidth it can
> pass-thru. Btw, I have Orchid R3D, thick cable. Cards are next to each
> other.

 What you're seeing here is the effect of aggressive RF choke filtering
of the video signal just before the monitor connector on the Righteous
3D (and many other 3Dfx based cards -and- regular 2D cards). The chokes
are used to filter "unwanted" high frequencies from the video signal for
FCC compliance and this is mostly what causes the image to become blurry
at high resolutions/refresh rates. If the chokes are bypassed by
removing them and in their place, solder solid wire jumpers, the image
quality will return to normal. The pass through cable has little to do
with affecting the video quality (blurriness) but alot to do with
picking up interference from other electronic devices which will cause a
different kind of degradation such as wavy lines or snow.
 My modifications for the R3D and Diamond Viper V330 clear up the video
signal to the quality of my Millennium II's video signal which has the
best image quality I've ever seen.  

-- 
Sergey Zakharov

To reply, replace "nospam" with my organization.

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0600, "RCR" <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net>
wrote:

>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.

I had similer concerns since I am also very picky, but I haven't had
any degradation with my Canopus Pure3D.  I could notice a difference
(my message box text got a bit darker) but I wouldn't call it
degradation.  I'm running at 1024 x 768 24 bit @ 80Hz with an STB
Nitro 3D as the 2D card.
_______________________________
Clay Niemann
Armadillo Consulting & Graphics
http://www.dillonet.com

Charles A Smith wrote in message <67jc1o$36@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu>...
>I have seen no degredation at any resolution or color depth on my
>Canopus Pure3d card.
>
>I am VERY picky about such things so I would notice if there was.
>
>Chuck Smith
>


I have a Canopus Pure 3D card too (along with a Matrox Millenium 2D) and
have not seen any degradation either.

        ken rahmoeller

I was using Mystique 220 + Hitachi CM751 19" at 1152x864 at 99Hz.
The effect was dramatic (and thouroughly dissapointing)
It went from razor sharp to fuzzy. Setting refresh rate to 75-85hz helped,
but in the end, I went to 1024x768 @ 85hz. Minimal if any effect there.
It seems that the 3DFX card has a limited amount of bandwidth it can
pass-thru. Btw, I have Orchid R3D, thick cable. Cards are next to each
other.

RCR (rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net) wrote:
: I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
: degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
: 3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
: 
: Is this a problem?
: 
: Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
: 
: Thanks.
: 
: 
: 
: 

S3 Trio64 and Orchid R3D, 1280x1024@75 on my Samsung syncmaster 20GLs and no problems with blur.

Instead of tinkering with the videocable a got a dsub->bnc cable without chokes.

               // Anders
>Philip Poe wrote:
>> 
>> I was using Mystique 220 + Hitachi CM751 19" at 1152x864 at 99Hz.
>> The effect was dramatic (and thouroughly dissapointing)
>> It went from razor sharp to fuzzy. Setting refresh rate to 75-85hz helped,
>> but in the end, I went to 1024x768 @ 85hz. Minimal if any effect there.
>> It seems that the 3DFX card has a limited amount of bandwidth it can
>> pass-thru. Btw, I have Orchid R3D, thick cable. Cards are next to each
>> other.

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0600, "RCR" <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net>
wrote:

>I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
>degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
>3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
>
It really depends on how picky you are, what monitor you have, what
video card (2d and 3d card) and what resolution and refresh rate you
run at.  I just got an Orchid Righteous 3D (which some claim has the
least degradation due to its mechanical relay), and I noticed fairly
significant degradation at 800x600x85hz.  Dropping it down to 75 hz
made it a better, but it's definitely a little worse.

At 1024x768x75 hz, there is noticeable degradation as well.  I think
you might be best off seeing one in action and seeing if you can
borrow one to try on your system.

I'm running my Righteous 3D w/a Matrox Millennium on an IBM P70 17"
monitor (which appears to be an OEMed Sony 17seII but w/o the BNC
connectors :().  If you have a monitor that has 2 inputs, you could
forego the pass thru and hook each card up to the separate inputs on
your monitor.

The "3d stuff" is great though.  It made CART Precision Racing and
FS98 look significantly better and run somewhat faster.  Enhanced MW2
(esp. compared to the original) looks great, so do Flight Unlimited
II, Wing Commander Prophecy, and Quake II (trying to run this w/o the
assistance of the 3D card gave me far inferior graphics and along
w/jerkiness, runs great w/the 3D card enabled).

>Is this a problem?
>
>Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
>

Andrew Chiang wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:09:42 -0600, "RCR" <rcr1954_atsign_ibm_dot_net>
> wrote:
> 
> >I'm considering buying a Voodoo card but am concerned about reports of image
> >degradation - no matter how great the 3d stuff is, I won't accept any
> >3dfx-caused loss of sharpness in Windows apps.
> >
> It really depends on how picky you are, what monitor you have, what
> video card (2d and 3d card) and what resolution and refresh rate you
> run at.  I just got an Orchid Righteous 3D (which some claim has the
> least degradation due to its mechanical relay), and I noticed fairly
> significant degradation at 800x600x85hz.  Dropping it down to 75 hz
> made it a better, but it's definitely a little worse.
> 
> At 1024x768x75 hz, there is noticeable degradation as well.  I think
> you might be best off seeing one in action and seeing if you can
> borrow one to try on your system.
> 
> I'm running my Righteous 3D w/a Matrox Millennium on an IBM P70 17"
> monitor (which appears to be an OEMed Sony 17seII but w/o the BNC
> connectors :().  If you have a monitor that has 2 inputs, you could
> forego the pass thru and hook each card up to the separate inputs on
> your monitor.
> 
> The "3d stuff" is great though.  It made CART Precision Racing and
> FS98 look significantly better and run somewhat faster.  Enhanced MW2
> (esp. compared to the original) looks great, so do Flight Unlimited
> II, Wing Commander Prophecy, and Quake II (trying to run this w/o the
> assistance of the 3D card gave me far inferior graphics and along
> w/jerkiness, runs great w/the 3D card enabled).
> 
so there is degredation for resolutions higher than 1024x768??? say at
1600x1200 its gonna be bad???

RCR wrote:
[...]
> Is this a problem?

  A bit.  I find a bit of degradation above 800x600 (I run 75Hz at all
resolutions -- higher refresh may make the symptoms worse).
  It's not the stub cable -- I've plugged through it alone (it's
basically a 6" extension) and tried all sorts of "visual benchmarks"
(unscientific, subjective, but hey).  So it appears to be the card. 
I'll have to try moving it around in the system to see if it's position
dependent.
  People's experience varies -- all over the scale.  The thing to do is
get a look at a config similar to your own.  I also have a Matrox m3D,
which of course has no problem with 2D image degradation.  It does
render differently than the Voodoo and has different speed
characteristics (no, it's not always slower).  I'm not sure if I like it
-- I like its display quality and it benchmarks well, but it has some
gameplay quirks that I intend to examine more closely (alongside my
Voodoo).  Might not be the card; could just be me.  (To be specific: 
I've been getting creamed at Quake (GLQuake I) -- could be me, could be
my ISP, could be the people I'm playing against, could be the m3D.)

> Are any particular Voodoo cards more or less of a problem in the regard?

  Can't say -- I've only tried my R3D with my Millenium I and Optiquest
V775.

Peter E. Fry

On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 02:27:24 -0700, Ian Firth wrote:

>You run 1600x1200 on a 17" that doesn't even have enough phosphors to 
>display that many pixels (that monitor only has about 1250 possible 
>pixels in the horizontal direction)... ???
>
>It must be a blurry mess.

Not at all, it`s less fuzzy than almost every other monitor I`ve had the
misfortune of using.  Sure, edges aren`t razor sharp, but individual pixels
are quite easily detectable, and I`d rather have the extra screen area with
a little bit of fuzz, than drop back to 1280*1024.

>Let me guess... Large Fonts.

You clipped out the remainder of my posting, in which I clearly stated:

"Everything is quite readable using the Small Fonts setting in the
Powerdesk display properties tab."


Note the use of the words SMALL FONTS.  Or is your monitor too fuzzy for
you to read ;-)

(And no, that doesn`t mean I`m using the Small Fonts setting and then
selecting large point sizes within individual apps...)


Merry Christmas
Chris
-- 
                          At Home With the Chris
            Amigas, Babylon 5, Flight Sims, RIAT'97 and Mel C
                       http://www.tornado.pair.com/