🚀 go-pugleaf

<p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in message
news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...
> I've got 4 80GB Drives that I'd like to redeploy in my house, but my
> existing computers don't have any free IDE connexions, PCI slots, or drive
> bays.  I also don't want to create another complete PC in my house.
>
> I've seen some IDE-raid enclosures, but they are all prohibitively
expensive.
>
> I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm thinking I
could
> grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and place them all in a small
> PC tower,

Well it would work but..  If you've got a PC standing idle perhaps you could
build a server? Instead of USB adaptors and a hub connect them to the
motherboard and fit a LAN card.

<p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in
message news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...

> I've got 4 80GB Drives that I'd like to redeploy in my house, but my
> existing computers don't have any free IDE connexions, PCI slots, or
> drive bays.  I also don't want to create another complete PC in my house.

> I've seen some IDE-raid enclosures, but they are all prohibitively expensive.

> I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm
> thinking I could grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and
> place them all in a small PC tower, and connect the hub to one of
> my computers. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would be fairly inexpensive.

> What are people's thoughts on this?  Are there better solutions?

I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.

Or decide that you collection of drives is getting a tad bizarre and
replace the smaller drives with much bigger drives, say 250G drives. 

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.

Thus unnecessarily adding another OS, and additional hardware for me to maintain.

> Or decide that you collection of drives is getting a tad bizarre and
> replace the smaller drives with much bigger drives, say 250G drives. 

Already done.  These 80GB are the leftovers, but still have life in them.



-- 
.............................................................................

     Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going 
     to speak  it to?      
                                                    - Clarence Darrow

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

I started to reply with another option, but you know what, it seems silly to 
put money into using those old drives.  I mean, $12 each adapter, a USB hub, 
cables, PC case, that adds up to a fair bit of money just to use the old 
drives.  Sure you may have some of the stuff lying around, but you could put 
the money towards a 250GB or larger drive for so cheap its crazy, and it 
will have a warranty!

Then after you get the big 250GB+ drive maybe use one of the 80GB drives in 
a portable USB enclosure for convenience, if one 80GB drive dies in the 
enclosure you have 3 more to replace it with!

--Dan


<p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in message 
news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...
> I've got 4 80GB Drives that I'd like to redeploy in my house, but my
> existing computers don't have any free IDE connexions, PCI slots, or drive
> bays.  I also don't want to create another complete PC in my house.
>
> I've seen some IDE-raid enclosures, but they are all prohibitively 
> expensive.
>
> I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm thinking I 
> could
> grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and place them all in a small
> PC tower, and connect the hub to one of my computers. It wouldn't be
> pretty, but it would be fairly inexpensive.
>
> What are people's thoughts on this?  Are there better solutions?
>
>
> -- 
> .............................................................................
>
> Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. 
> Tell
> them something new and they will hate you for it.
>
>                                        -George Monbiot
>
> .............................................................................
> dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com 
> http://www.memeticcandiru.com 

j4m4l_$1xp4ck@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
>>Or decide that you collection of drives is getting a tad bizarre and
>>replace the smaller drives with much bigger drives, say 250G drives. 
> 
> Already done.  These 80GB are the leftovers, but still have life in them.
> 

Dan,

I think the USB path isn't a bad idea, but I'll suggest a few things.

1) Buy a separate PCI/USB Controller card (or two) for this, they can be 
had as cheap as $30. Because USB is a shared network (and not all that 
fast to begin with) spreading the drives across a couple of separate 
controllers, or at least dedicating a controller just to this, will 
greatly improve the performance. I know that may not be your goal, but 
neither is something that is so slow it becomes nearly unusable.

2) Ditch the idea of using a hub, it'll just be a bottleneck.

3) make sure that enclosure has a couple of fans in it besides the power 
supply fan, if possible. Hard drive do generate a lot of heat.

4) If you wanted to get real fancy, consider having the drives them 
selves in those removable drive bays you can buy, and hook the usb 
adapter kits to those. This way you could have the advantages of making 
it easy to hot swap drive in and out, and the USB convenience. It would 
cost a bunch more money, but it is an interesting idea.

5) If you hook it up to a Linux box, as opposed to a windows one, you 
might want to explore using RAID on them to make them appear as a single 
larger volume (RAID5). I have no idea how good it would work in 
practice, but it might be interesting to play with.

Let us know how it turns out. I'd also be interested in knowing if the 
Ebay deal pans out. I have two 40GB USB drives, by Microsolutions which 
use their goofy backpack (Colorado) hardware. It is a major pain as you 
need special drivers to deal with them. I wouldn't mind retrofitting 
them with a real USB/IDE kit of some sort.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

<p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in message
news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...

> I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm thinking I
could
> grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and place them all in a
small
> PC tower, and connect the hub to one of my computers. It wouldn't be
> pretty, but it would be fairly inexpensive.

I'm curious, are you planning on using an AT PS? ~ 2tec

j4m4l_$1xp4ck@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:

> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.
> 
> Thus unnecessarily adding another OS, and additional hardware for me to
> maintain.

How much maintenance do you think a server _needs_?  A good server is
something that you turn on and forget about.

>> Or decide that you collection of drives is getting a tad bizarre and
>> replace the smaller drives with much bigger drives, say 250G drives.
> 
> Already done.  These 80GB are the leftovers, but still have life in them.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In calgary.general Tom2Tec <nospamfor.tom2tec@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm curious, are you planning on using an AT PS? ~ 2tec

Yep.  At least with my current "Design", which is very subject to change.

The USB->IDE adaptors I'm looking at come with  110VAC->12VDC converters
that plug right into the drives, but a PC PS would be more practical 
(Less cabling/outlets used).


-- 
.............................................................................

"The biggest cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid people
 are so sure about things and the intelligent folks are so full of doubts."

       	    	  	     	 	     	       	   -Bertrand Russell 

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

<p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in message
news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...
> I've got 4 80GB Drives that I'd like to redeploy in my house, but my
> existing computers don't have any free IDE connexions, PCI slots, or drive
> bays.  I also don't want to create another complete PC in my house.
>
> I've seen some IDE-raid enclosures, but they are all prohibitively
expensive.
>
> I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm thinking I
could
> grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and place them all in a small
> PC tower, and connect the hub to one of my computers. It wouldn't be
> pretty, but it would be fairly inexpensive.
>
> What are people's thoughts on this?  Are there better solutions?
>
>
> -- 
>
............................................................................
.
>
> Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it.
Tell
> them something new and they will hate you for it.
>
>                                         -George Monbiot
>
>
............................................................................
.
> dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com
http://www.memeticcandiru.com

Admittedly, this is probably a bit more expensive than you intended, but
interesting:
http://www.usbgear.com/Dual_bay_firewire_case_enclosure/

http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=21815

Stay away from hubs, whatever you choose to do.

"Lil' Dave" <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote in message
news:U68ze.17417$pa3.10067@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> <p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote in message
> news:PXTye.133295$on1.91681@clgrps13...
> Admittedly, this is probably a bit more expensive than you intended, but
> interesting:
> http://www.usbgear.com/Dual_bay_firewire_case_enclosure/
>
> http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=21815
>
> Stay away from hubs, whatever you choose to do.
>


Likewise these are smart...
see Sohotank..
http://www.stardom.com.tw/web/product.htm
Any interface you want.

In calgary.general Lil' Dave <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:

> Admittedly, this is probably a bit more expensive than you intended, but
> interesting:
> http://www.usbgear.com/Dual_bay_firewire_case_enclosure/

I've seen those, but you're right:  Too expensive... And no room to expand.
I want my enclosure to have more room so I can add more 80GB drives down the
road as they get cheaper, and expand my raid 5 array.

> Stay away from hubs, whatever you choose to do.

Splain?   You mean USB hubs?

-- 
.............................................................................

The search for truth is more precious than its possession.

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

In calgary.general dg <dan_gus@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I started to reply with another option, but you know what, it seems silly to 
> put money into using those old drives.  I mean, $12 each adapter, a USB hub, 
> cables, PC case, that adds up to a fair bit of money just to use the old 
> drives.  Sure you may have some of the stuff lying around, but you could put 
> the money towards a 250GB or larger drive for so cheap its crazy, and it 
> will have a warranty!

> Then after you get the big 250GB+ drive maybe use one of the 80GB drives in 
> a portable USB enclosure for convenience, if one 80GB drive dies in the 
> enclosure you have 3 more to replace it with!

I already have several higher-capacity drives.   I'm looking to create a
poor man's JBOD, and raid-5 it.   80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
or more can be used as a backup pool.   As 80GB drives get cheaper and
cheaper, it will be pennies to extend my existing raid 5 set.


-- 
.............................................................................

"After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state,
 we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine. "
 
                               - Isreali founding father David Ben-Gurion

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

In calgary.general J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
> j4m4l_$1xp4ck@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:

>> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.
>> 
>> Thus unnecessarily adding another OS, and additional hardware for me to
>> maintain.

> How much maintenance do you think a server _needs_?  A good server is
> something that you turn on and forget about.

Gross oversimlification.  You're not an IT manager, are you?

Any unnecessary complexity introduces more points of failure - Which
inevitably increases the amount of time I will spend maintaining it down the
road.


-- 
.............................................................................

"Take the Anti-Defamation League [of B'nai B'rith] It's actually an
 organization devoted to trying to defame and intimidate and silence people 
 who criticize current Israeli policies, whatever they may be"

                                       -Noam Chomsky, Language and Politics

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

In calgary.general Dice <dice@wilddice.org> wrote:

> Dan,

> I think the USB path isn't a bad idea, but I'll suggest a few things.

Dice, yours is easily the most helpful post in this thread.  I think you
"get" what I am trying to do.

> 1) Buy a separate PCI/USB Controller card (or two) for this, they can be 
> had as cheap as $30. Because USB is a shared network (and not all that 
> fast to begin with) spreading the drives across a couple of separate 
> controllers, or at least dedicating a controller just to this, will 
> greatly improve the performance. I know that may not be your goal, but 
> neither is something that is so slow it becomes nearly unusable.

No PCI slots on my server, unfortunately.

> 2) Ditch the idea of using a hub, it'll just be a bottleneck.

What you're saying makes complete sense, but unfortunately, my constraints
rule out multiple USB buses.   Thankfully, performance isn't important - As
long as I'm getting reasonable and realiable throughput, that's sufficient.


> 3) make sure that enclosure has a couple of fans in it besides the power 
> supply fan, if possible. Hard drive do generate a lot of heat.

Very true, and a point worth emphasising.

> 4) If you wanted to get real fancy, consider having the drives them 
> selves in those removable drive bays you can buy, and hook the usb 
> adapter kits to those. This way you could have the advantages of making 
> it easy to hot swap drive in and out, and the USB convenience. It would 
> cost a bunch more money, but it is an interesting idea.

Another excellent idea.  Although this increases cost, this will make adding
and replacing disks down the road easier.    I'm sure if I keep my eyes open
on ebay, I will find a lot auction for cheap.

> 5) If you hook it up to a Linux box, as opposed to a windows one, you 
> might want to explore using RAID on them to make them appear as a single 
> larger volume (RAID5). I have no idea how good it would work in 
> practice, but it might be interesting to play with.

That's exactly where I'm headed.  My server is Linux, and I want to hook up
this "Poor Man's JBOD", Raid5 it with software, and use it as a backuppool
for TSM.

> Let us know how it turns out. I'd also be interested in knowing if the 
> Ebay deal pans out. I have two 40GB USB drives, by Microsolutions which 
> use their goofy backpack (Colorado) hardware. It is a major pain as you 
> need special drivers to deal with them. I wouldn't mind retrofitting 
> them with a real USB/IDE kit of some sort.

I don't think it'll be hard to get adapters off of Ebay.  There're plentiful
and cheap on there already, and I'm sure will get more plentiful and
cheaper down the road.

This thread has helped me cement some of the ideas I was tossing around in
my head.    I think the next step for me is to do some napkin-math to figure
out costs and options, and depending on the numbers, start looking for a 
cheap 7-bay enclosure.    If I pursue it, I'll definitely post the outcome
here.




-- 
.............................................................................

     Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going 
     to speak  it to?      
                                                    - Clarence Darrow

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:31:33 GMT,
h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:

>In calgary.general Lil' Dave <spamyourself@virus.net> wrote:
>
>> Admittedly, this is probably a bit more expensive than you intended, but
>> interesting:
>> http://www.usbgear.com/Dual_bay_firewire_case_enclosure/
>
>I've seen those, but you're right:  Too expensive... And no room to expand.
>I want my enclosure to have more room so I can add more 80GB drives down the
>road as they get cheaper, and expand my raid 5 array.

Just out of curiosity, are you planning on using software or hardware
raid 5? I keep hoping the pricing on decent raid 5 sata cards will
drop, but it's yet to happen. In the meantime, I've got several
terabytes of music & video languishing on optical media.

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:

> In calgary.general J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:
>> j4m4l_$1xp4ck@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> 
>>> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.
>>> 
>>> Thus unnecessarily adding another OS, and additional hardware for me to
>>> maintain.
> 
>> How much maintenance do you think a server _needs_?  A good server is
>> something that you turn on and forget about.
> 
> Gross oversimlification.  You're not an IT manager, are you?

We weren't talking about an IT department.
 
> Any unnecessary complexity introduces more points of failure - Which
> inevitably increases the amount of time I will spend maintaining it down
> the road.

Then you don't know how to configure a server.

-- 
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Helper Monkey Assault Squad 7 wrote:
> Just out of curiosity, are you planning on using software or hardware
> raid 5? I keep hoping the pricing on decent raid 5 sata cards will
> drop, but it's yet to happen. In the meantime, I've got several
> terabytes of music & video languishing on optical media.

Given the extremely low overhead of software raid (even under Windows), 
why wait?

The bigger issue is hooking up the devices (especially if you have more 
than 4). Dan's idea is quite interesting, and expandable, while IDE, and 
SATA adapters are out there they just don't have lots of long term 
expandability. Using USB like Dan is looking at or AoE (which I 
mentioned earlier) you in essence are able to build a 'poor mans' SAN.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote
> J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote
>> j4m4l_$1xp4ck@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> I think another PC for those 4 drives makes more sense.

>>> Thus unnecessarily adding another OS,
>>> and additional hardware for me to maintain.

>> How much maintenance do you think a server _needs_?
>> A good server is something that you turn on and forget about.

> Gross oversimlification.

Nope.

> You're not an IT manager, are you?

Hope you have a rather large towel handy for the egg on your face.

> Any unnecessary complexity introduces more points of failure

Thats what YOU are doing with multiple USB external enclosures.

> Which inevitably increases the amount of time
> I will spend maintaining it down the road.

Thats what YOU are doing with multiple USB external enclosures.

They are notorious for hassles over time compared with the MUCH
more robust technology of a standalone server with the drives in that.

And it makes a lot more sense to not be farting around with discarded
80G drives at all and to replace them all with a 400G drive instead. 

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> dg <dan_gus@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I started to reply with another option, but you know what, it seems
>> silly to put money into using those old drives.  I mean, $12 each
>> adapter, a USB hub, cables, PC case, that adds up to a fair bit of
>> money just to use the old drives.  Sure you may have some of the
>> stuff lying around, but you could put the money towards a 250GB or
>> larger drive for so cheap its crazy, and it will have a warranty!

>> Then after you get the big 250GB+ drive maybe use one of the
>> 80GB drives in a portable USB enclosure for convenience, if one
>> 80GB drive dies in the enclosure you have 3 more to replace it with!

> I already have several higher-capacity drives.   I'm
> looking to create a poor man's JBOD, and raid-5 it.

Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.

> 80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
> or more can be used as a backup pool.

So can a 250G drive.

> As 80GB drives get cheaper and cheaper, it
> will be pennies to extend my existing raid 5 set.

Pity about the problems that the USB will produce, you watch. 

In calgary.general Helper Monkey Assault Squad 7 <hmas7@grapeape.com> wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, are you planning on using software or hardware
> raid 5? I keep hoping the pricing on decent raid 5 sata cards will
> drop, but it's yet to happen. In the meantime, I've got several
> terabytes of music & video languishing on optical media.

It would have to be software.  I have no hardware which would allow the
introduction of a raid card.  I would connect the drives as USB, and then
use soft tools to configure a set.


-- 
.............................................................................

"The London Sunday Times found evidence of torture [by Israel] so 
 widespread and systematic that 'it appears to be sanctioned at some level 
 as deliberate policy,' perhaps 'to persuade Arabs in occupied territories 
 that it is least  painful to behave passively'"
 
                                -Noam Chomsky, The Fateful Triangle, p 127

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Dice, yours is easily the most helpful post in this thread.  I think you
> "get" what I am trying to do.

Thanks, I'm a storage geek after all.

> What you're saying makes complete sense, but unfortunately, my constraints
> rule out multiple USB buses.   Thankfully, performance isn't important - As
> long as I'm getting reasonable and realiable throughput, that's sufficient.

Go for a really good USB hub then. I would spend a little more money on 
the hub, and get a 8 port hub (for expandability). Cascading hubs while 
possible, isn't recommended or probably very desirable.

> That's exactly where I'm headed.  My server is Linux, and I want to hook up
> this "Poor Man's JBOD", Raid5 it with software, and use it as a backuppool
> for TSM.

Raided USB Drives, I'll give you this it's an interesting idea.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

Rod Speed wrote:
>>Also as an interesting alternative BTW AoE (ATA over Ethernet) has been 
>>getting quite a bit of press recently. It isn't in your price range I suspect
> 
> Corse it isnt.

I'm sorry I didn't realize you were Dan's personal accountant.

> 
>>(It really is designed more to be a datacenter solution),
> 
> And is completely unsuitable for using some 80G discards.
> 

Not really, AoE using some discarded 80GB drives might be completely 
suitable for a technology enthusiast to play with.

>>but the technology is interesting. http://www.coraid.com for more information.
>  
> A basic obsolete PC makes a lot more sense in his situation.

Maybe, but as I said, this was merely an interesting alternative.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

Rod Speed wrote:
> Thats what YOU are doing with multiple USB external enclosures.
>

Except if you had read what he is planning you would realize he isn't 
going to be dealing with multiple USB external enclosures.

> They are notorious for hassles over time compared with the MUCH
> more robust technology of a standalone server with the drives in that.

Really? You base this on what? I certainly haven't seen it.

> And it makes a lot more sense to not be farting around with discarded
> 80G drives at all and to replace them all with a 400G drive instead. 

Yes, but why waste the 80GB drives if you have them? Sometimes the most 
educational/fun parts of computer technology is 'farting around' with 
things.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

Rod Speed wrote:
> 
> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.
> 

Considering your tone, and the complete lack of any reason you think 
that is 'fucked', I think it safe to say you don't have any idea.

> Pity about the problems that the USB will produce, you watch. 

And what problems would those be?

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

Dice wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Also as an interesting alternative BTW AoE (ATA over Ethernet) has been 
>>> getting quite a bit of press recently. It isn't in your price range I 
>>> suspect

>> Corse it isnt.

> I'm sorry I didn't realize you were Dan's personal accountant.

Dont need to be. He clearly said that he's using discarded
80G drives and wants to minimise the cost. That route doesnt.

>>> (It really is designed more to be a datacenter solution),

>> And is completely unsuitable for using some 80G discards.

> Not really,

Yes, really. The price is mad for 80G discarded drives.

> AoE using some discarded 80GB drives might be completely
> suitable for a technology enthusiast to play with.

That aint what he said he wanted to do.

>>> but the technology is interesting. http://www.coraid.com for more
>>> information.

>> A basic obsolete PC makes a lot more sense in his situation.

> Maybe,

No maybe about it.

> but as I said, this was merely an interesting alternative.

Completely unsuitable for what he wasnt to do, use some
discarded 80G drives as a backup device, CHEAPLY. 

Dice wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Dice wrote

>>> Also as an interesting alternative BTW AoE (ATA over Ethernet) has been
>>> getting quite a bit of press recently. It isn't in your price range I 
>>> suspect

>> Corse it isnt.

> I'm sorry I didn't realize you were Dan's personal accountant.

Dont need to be. He clearly said that he's using discarded
80G drives and wants to minimise the cost. It says that
VERY unambiguously in the subject on that CHEAP.

That route aint anything like CHEAP.

>>> (It really is designed more to be a datacenter solution),

>> And is completely unsuitable for using some 80G discards.

> Not really,

Yes, really. The price is mad for 80G discarded drives.

And is nothing like CHEAP.

> AoE using some discarded 80GB drives might be completely
> suitable for a technology enthusiast to play with.

That aint what he said he wanted, CHEAP.

>>> but the technology is interesting. http://www.coraid.com for more
>>> information.

>> A basic obsolete PC makes a lot more sense in his situation.

> Maybe,

No maybe about it.

> but as I said, this was merely an interesting alternative.

Completely unsuitable for what he wasnt to do, use some
discarded 80G drives as a backup device, CHEAPLY. 

Dice wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Any unnecessary complexity introduces more points of failure

>> Thats what YOU are doing with multiple USB external enclosures.

> Except if you had read what he is planning you would realize he isn't going to 
> be dealing with multiple USB external enclosures.

In practice he is, just putting them in a single housing.

Electrically they are still separate, with a separate USB connection to each 
drive.

>> They are notorious for hassles over time compared with the MUCH
>> more robust technology of a standalone server with the drives in that.

> Really? You base this on what? I certainly haven't seen it.

You need to get out more. Have a read thru comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage
alone searching on USB and weep.

>> And it makes a lot more sense to not be farting around with discarded
>> 80G drives at all and to replace them all with a 400G drive instead.

> Yes, but why waste the 80GB drives if you have them?

Basically because its too much hassle to fart around with USB
to IDE bridges for each drive and some way to house them.

> Sometimes the most educational/fun parts of computer technology is 'farting 
> around' with things.

He has said repeately that he isnt interested in wasting his time.

If he does want to use the spare 80G drives, the only thing that makes any
sense is a separate linux based server and do the RAID5 at the software level.

But even that makes no real sense over say a 400G drive.

It just a rather silly technowank. 

Dice wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.

> Considering your tone, and the complete lack of any reason you think that is 
> 'fucked',

You're lying. Read my other posts, fuckwit.

> I think it safe to say you don't have any idea.

Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of thought.

So stupid you cant even manage to read and comprehend
his original requirement for CHEAP still there in the subject.

>> Pity about the problems that the USB will produce, you watch.

> And what problems would those be?

See my other response on that. 

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:30:18 GMT, Dice <dice@wilddice.org> wrote:

>Helper Monkey Assault Squad 7 wrote:
>> Just out of curiosity, are you planning on using software or hardware
>> raid 5? I keep hoping the pricing on decent raid 5 sata cards will
>> drop, but it's yet to happen. In the meantime, I've got several
>> terabytes of music & video languishing on optical media.
>
>Given the extremely low overhead of software raid (even under Windows), 
>why wait?

A couple reasons: I'm running XP Pro vs Server 2003. I could install
2003, but I like playing games, don't feel like having to boot into
server to listen to music, and have no real desire to buy additional
hardware at this point--a laptop and a fast desktop are enough. 

My motherboard only supports two sata drives (ASUS P4P800 Del), and
I'd rather not have to blow $40 a drive on adaptors.  I could switch
out the motherboard, but then I'd likely want to go for a board with
PCI-express, thus making making 2.4 ghz CPU (currently running at 3.6
ghz) and $500 worth of dual channel memory worthless.

Other than that, it would work great. :)

So currently it's a waiting game as to what keeps cheap first: sata
raid cards, wireless nas boxes, or a replacement desktop (then I'll
use this as a full-time server).

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dice wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote

>>> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.

>> Considering your tone, and the complete lack of any reason you think that is 
>> 'fucked',

> You're lying. Read my other posts, fuckwit.

You're silly.




-- 
.............................................................................

"Forced counseling and "sensitivity training" are nothing more than 
 buzzwords for political re-education" 
                                         -Letter in NY Times, Feb 2, 2000

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

l3gl3$$_m4r1n3@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dice wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.
>
>>> Considering your tone, and the complete lack of any reason you
>>> think that is 'fucked',
>
>> You're lying. Read my other posts, fuckwit.
>
> You're silly.

You're a fuckwit. 

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:17:09 +1000, "Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> You're silly.
>
>You're a fuckwit. 

You're a silly fuckwit?

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
>> dg <dan_gus@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>> I started to reply with another option, but you know what, it seems
>>> silly to put money into using those old drives.  I mean, $12 each
>>> adapter, a USB hub, cables, PC case, that adds up to a fair bit of
>>> money just to use the old drives.  Sure you may have some of the
>>> stuff lying around, but you could put the money towards a 250GB or
>>> larger drive for so cheap its crazy, and it will have a warranty!

>>> Then after you get the big 250GB+ drive maybe use one of the
>>> 80GB drives in a portable USB enclosure for convenience, if one
>>> 80GB drive dies in the enclosure you have 3 more to replace it with!

>> I already have several higher-capacity drives.   I'm
>> looking to create a poor man's JBOD, and raid-5 it.

> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.

>> 80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
>> or more can be used as a backup pool.

> So can a 250G drive.

A single 250GB drive lacks the resiliency of a 80GBxN raid5 set.   A raid5 set
can tolerate an inevitable drive failure - A single 250GB drive can't.


-- 
.............................................................................

"No nation keeps another in subjection without herself turning into a 
 subject nation."
 	 	 		       -Mahatma Gandhi

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

d0kt0r_$73v3@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
>>> dg <dan_gus@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I started to reply with another option, but you know what, it seems
>>>> silly to put money into using those old drives.  I mean, $12 each
>>>> adapter, a USB hub, cables, PC case, that adds up to a fair bit of
>>>> money just to use the old drives.  Sure you may have some of the
>>>> stuff lying around, but you could put the money towards a 250GB or
>>>> larger drive for so cheap its crazy, and it will have a warranty!
>
>>>> Then after you get the big 250GB+ drive maybe use one of the
>>>> 80GB drives in a portable USB enclosure for convenience, if one
>>>> 80GB drive dies in the enclosure you have 3 more to replace it
>>>> with!
>
>>> I already have several higher-capacity drives.   I'm
>>> looking to create a poor man's JBOD, and raid-5 it.
>
>> Then the USB route is a fucked approach for that.
>
>>> 80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
>>> or more can be used as a backup pool.
>
>> So can a 250G drive.
>
> A single 250GB drive lacks the resiliency of a 80GBxN raid5 set.   A
> raid5 set can tolerate an inevitable drive failure - A single 250GB
> drive can't.

Duh. 

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>> 80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
>>>> or more can be used as a backup pool.
>>
>>> So can a 250G drive.
>>
>> A single 250GB drive lacks the resiliency of a 80GBxN raid5 set.   A
>> raid5 set can tolerate an inevitable drive failure - A single 250GB
>> drive can't.

> Duh. 

Duh yourself.  The 250 drive was your own crappy suggestion.


-- 
.............................................................................

"I have no doubt that [Palestinian] civilians deserve punishment"

   	   	      		       -Menachim Begin, 1982.

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

hym3n_h0l0c4$t@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>> 80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
>>>>> or more can be used as a backup pool.

>>>> So can a 250G drive.

>>> A single 250GB drive lacks the resiliency of a 80GBxN raid5 set.
>>> A raid5 set can tolerate an inevitable drive failure - A single
>>> 250GB drive can't.

>> Duh.

> Duh yourself.  The 250 drive was your own crappy suggestion.

Even someone as stupid as you should be able to work out from the
thread that if he does want raid5, the collosal kludge of attempting it
with individual USB bridges per drive is a completely silly way to do that.

And you dont need raid5 in a BACKUP POOL anyway.

Now get back in your cage. 

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to work out from the
> thread that if he does want raid5, the collosal kludge of attempting it
> with individual USB bridges per drive is a completely silly way to do that.

Not at all, given "his" constraints.

> And you dont need raid5 in a BACKUP POOL anyway.

That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.




-- 
.............................................................................

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt.

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:

> In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to work out from the
>> thread that if he does want raid5, the collosal kludge of attempting it
>> with individual USB bridges per drive is a completely silly way to do
>> that.
> 
> Not at all, given "his" constraints.
> 
>> And you dont need raid5 in a BACKUP POOL anyway.
> 
> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

Actually, unless one needs to span two drives to get space for a single
backup, for backup you're better off having multiple independent backup
drives and removing them when not in use, so that you're using them in the
same general way that tapes are used.  Having an array online for backup
makes it difficult to maintain isolated generations--something that kills
one backup may kill them all.
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In calgary.general J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@snet.net.invalid> wrote:

> Actually, unless one needs to span two drives to get space for a single
> backup, for backup you're better off having multiple independent backup
> drives and removing them when not in use, so that you're using them in the
> same general way that tapes are used.  Having an array online for backup
> makes it difficult to maintain isolated generations--something that kills
> one backup may kill them all.

Very valid point.  

-- 
.............................................................................

"If you can't change the world Change yourself"
                                                 -Matt Johnson

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>> Even someone as stupid as you should be able to work out from the
>> thread that if he does want raid5, the collosal kludge of attempting it
>> with individual USB bridges per drive is a completely silly way to do that.

> Not at all, given "his" constraints.

Thanks for that completely superfluous
proof that you've never ever had a fucking clue.

'his constraints' are completely stupid.

>> And you dont need raid5 in a BACKUP POOL anyway.

> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

Nope. That pool is ALREADY A BACKUP, stupid. 

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

> Nope. That pool is ALREADY A BACKUP, stupid. 

That's obvious.

You're a nasty one, arncha?


-- 
.............................................................................

"In June 1967, we again had a choice:  The Egyptian Army concentrations in
 the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack 
 us.  We must be honest with ourselves.  We decided to attack him"
 
                                                           -Menachem Begin

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

m3nn0_s4r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

>> Nope. That pool is ALREADY A BACKUP, stupid.

> That's obvious.

So it aint a judgement call, stupid.

> You're a nasty one, arncha?

I just dump on terminal fuckwits like you. 

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:48:47 GMT, p1mp_ju1c3@salmahayeksknockers.edu
wrote:

>I've got 4 80GB Drives that I'd like to redeploy in my house, but my
>existing computers don't have any free IDE connexions, PCI slots, or drive
>bays.  I also don't want to create another complete PC in my house.
>
>I've seen some IDE-raid enclosures, but they are all prohibitively expensive.
>
>I've seen IDE->USB adapters cheap on Ebay (~$12 each).  I'm thinking I could 
>grab 4 of these, connect my drives to a hub, and place them all in a small 
>PC tower, and connect the hub to one of my computers. It wouldn't be
>pretty, but it would be fairly inexpensive.

Given the capacity of the drives and the cheapness of new 300GB drives
($130 or so when you find a deal, even for new Seagates), you may end
up paying more than it's worth for the USB adaptors or enclosures.  On
the other hand, you could use those for mostly-offline stuff.  In that
case, you could hand-unplug instead of trying a hub (a bottleneck, as
someone mentioned).  They may not have that much runtime left anyway.
I know my Maxtors, vintage 2-3 years are croaking en masse.

Also, RAID 0 won't make anything more reliable.  You could RAID-5 the
whole bunch of them.  USB 2.0 won't keep up with the speed, but at
least you'd have one large volume and you'd be able to tolerate one
drive failure at a time.

Having said all of that, I think Lacie may make some kind of Raid'd
USB enclosure.  They had an external 500GB box, and I don't know how
else you'd get there.

There's also a server-type box made by Buffalo.  Way beyond the call
for this type of thing, but it's a network connect, so it should be
speedy.

Interesting comments by others in this thread who recommend using an
old PC as a pseudo-network-server.  I was actually considering doing
this with some old 120GBs and a couple retired 3Ware Raid controllers.
You could probably get 6000-series 3Ware controllers on Ebay for cheap
and hook them up as Raid 5.  That is, if you have an extra computer
and/or if you're already running a network.

On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:35:54 GMT,
h1dd3n_h4m$73r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:


>I already have several higher-capacity drives.   I'm looking to create a
>poor man's JBOD, and raid-5 it.   80GB extra is useless to me... but 240GB
>or more can be used as a backup pool.   As 80GB drives get cheaper and
>cheaper, it will be pennies to extend my existing raid 5 set.

Run the cable out to the garage so it doesn't make too  much noise <g>

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:
> m3nn0_s4r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

>>> Nope. That pool is ALREADY A BACKUP, stupid.

>> That's obvious.

> So it aint a judgement call, stupid.

>> You're a nasty one, arncha?

> I just dump on terminal fuckwits like you. 

Whatever makes you feel better...



-- 
.............................................................................

"Once something is seen, it cannot be made to be unseen." 

                                                          -Bertoldt  Brecht

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

l3gl3$$_m4r1n3@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote
>> m3nn0_s4r@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>> That's a judgement call, based on the value of the data.

>>>> Nope. That pool is ALREADY A BACKUP, stupid.

>>> That's obvious.

>> So it aint a judgement call, stupid.

>>> You're a nasty one, arncha?

>> I just dump on terminal fuckwits like you.

> Whatever makes you feel better...

Its what makes terminal fuckwits like you feel worse, actually.

That's clearly working. 

In calgary.general Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> Whatever makes you feel better...

> Its what makes terminal fuckwits like you feel worse, actually.

Aspiring to make others feel worse isn't a healthy way to live life.



-- 
.............................................................................

Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell
them something new and they will hate you for it.

     	       	       	    	      	      	 	     -George Monbiot

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

cuddles@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Aspiring to make others feel worse isn't a healthy way to live life.

I don't know why you are bothering Dan, Rod obviously doesn't know his 
ass from page eight, and is nothing more than a argumentative twit. He 
is just like Jon Pike, better to just ignore him, completely.

-- 
====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+====+

In calgary.general Dice <dicedontspamme@wilddice.org> wrote:

> I don't know why you are bothering Dan, Rod obviously doesn't know his 
> ass from page eight, and is nothing more than a argumentative twit. He 
> is just like Jon Pike, better to just ignore him, completely.

Dice... I just clued into who you are.  Didn't know you were still around.

BTW, I'd love to get together for a pint before the summer's out. 


-- 
.............................................................................

     Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going 
     to speak  it to?      
                                                    - Clarence Darrow

.............................................................................
dswan@m3m3t1ccand1ru.com                        http://www.memeticcandiru.com

cuddles@salmahayeksknockers.edu wrote:
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>>> Whatever makes you feel better...

>> Its what makes terminal fuckwits like you feel worse, actually.

> Aspiring to make others feel worse isn't a healthy way to live life.

Wrong. As always.