🚀 go-pugleaf

On Tue, 22 May 2001 03:25:35 +0100, Paul D. <media@clara.net> wrote:

>[Note to Krooger : you can f-off in advance with your PCABX crap!]
>
>Roj <rojramsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>And above all, I'm still going to say that the sound of the **entire**
>>CL line is decidedly substandard to that of the Turtle Beach and
>>Hercules offerings (not hard - the Live! is essentially a technical
>>piece of junk with the exception of the MIDI portion of it).
>
>Piece of junk?  Roj.. this does not seem to equate to a balanced
>opinion :-)

It is if you know what you're talking about and can back it up as I
have in my eight or nine pointer before I left.

I do and did.

No point in opening my mouth otherwise.

>Here's something to consider, volume of complaints DO relate to volume
>of sales.. and the Live is possibly the best selling soundcard of all
>time.

PT Barnum **did** say it best...

>>Pointe finale: if you value decent sound for anything outside of MIDI,
>>be it analog or digital, DO NOT BUY A LIVE!
>
>Not strictly bad advice, my conclusion pretty much concurs with yours.
>The Live excels in one respect, it is an excellent value MIDI
>interface/sampler (**also note : low latency ASIO/cubase compatible
>card with APS drivers**).  In most other respects there are better
>alternatives for slightly more outlay.

Yup - definitely.  Its one saving grace **is** the MIDI interface.
But that's an interface used by only a small fraction of the soundcard
market unfortunately.

>However, the Live is not as crippled as you make out.  Considering
>it's low cost it has an extremely impressive spec on the outputs (at
>least in the case of my sample), even beating the Santa Cruz in
>several important areas (analog and digital - cf pcavtech data).
>
>For example :
>
>87dB signal to noise ratio, analog output @ 44Khz 
>http://home.clara.net/media/sblive/1KHZ-DA.gif
>97dB signal to noise ratio, digital output @ 48Khz
>http://home.clara.net/media/sblive/1KHZ-DO.gif
>
>Distortion and background noise are very low, and the dynamic range is
>excellent see:
>
>93dB dynamic range, analog output @ 44Khz
>http://home.clara.net/media/sblive/DYN-DA.gif

Pity none of this comes out in listening tests.  It may have nice
specs on paper but audibly it's junk.

>There seems to me to be two real issues with the Live! audio output
>
>1) The current driver employs an audible roll off (I've had response
>from "Trevor" who gets a flat response.  Depends on driver revision?).
>This is not unintentional.. it's very smooth and very deliberate.
>Some people may have a preference for this response, and/or it may
>suit certain monitoring equipment better.  It can also to a large
>extent be corrected by using the freely available hacked APSLive
>drivers.  Perhaps someday even Creative will see fit to making the
>roll-off optional - petition anybody? :-)

And what price do you pay elsewhere for using APS drivers?

>2) Artifacts with signals >=18Khz.  This seems to be an unavoidable
>codec issue as it occurs in all modes of output.  Let me show you what
>I'm talking about, here's a digital sweep tone being transferred
>(loopback) from the Echo Gina's SPDIF output to it's input.
>
>http://home.clara.net/media/sblive/GINA-DD-SWEEP-SG.gif
>
>Cool huh?  Should be.. it's bit perfect.  Now check the same signal
>coming from the Live! SPDIF out to the Gina.
>
>http://home.clara.net/media/sblive/SB-GINA-DD-SWEEP-SG.gif
>
>Before you cream yourself Roj, notice the volume and frequency of
>those artifacts.  Are they likely to be audible?  To a consumer using
>PC speakers?  Also notice how clean the signal is below 18Khz?

Bottom line - at the very least they need to build better drivers.
Then there are the hardware incompatibility issues which are a volume
and a half on their own...

>>It doesn't and never will cut it.
>
>The general consensus seems to be "must try harder" particularly with
>respect to drivers and compatibility.  Yet for many people the card
>will work to their benefit, without hitch, and provide many hours of
>entertainment and pleasure with great sound and features at low cost.
>End of the world stuff.. huh?

Great sound?  Only if you have at best "average" standards (tongue
squarely in cheek).  Remember that little review I quoted?  I have
heard the same things he did and long before he ever committed his
viewpoints to print (at least five months, if the truth be told - the
day I installed the card, in fact).  The sound is just not there to be
heard.

But hey, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear".

Or not.

Remember, ATI also build really decent hardware - and have a long
history 9some ten years) or pathetic driver support and wield
compatibility issues.

Being a discriminating user who's time and aesthetics are valuable to
him, I just don't have the time and money to waste on a "maybe" that
has consistently never materialized (and given the company's attitude
is extremely unlikely - read: "slim and forget it" - to ever
materialize).

Roj