🚀 go-pugleaf

On Thu, 17 May 2001 20:18:37 +0100, Paul D. <media@clara.net> wrote:

>Roj <rojramsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>Is that the cheapest Santa Cruz you could find?  A Live! OEM can be
>>>had for just $43 (http://www.cheapgamers.com/products/171.asp) - a
>>>saving of $36.
>>
>>...and you get exactly what you pay for: cheap, badly designed junk.
>
>I take your point that there are some flaws, particularly wrt to the
>software.. but it seems to me you have an axe to grind with the Live!
>due to a bad experience with the thing.  Let's not make the case one
>sided eh?

I do have an axe to grind after putting up with four years of CL
mediocrity, garbage, arrogance and non-existant technical support but
that's entirely besides the point.

If they had a quality product that matched up to my standards, I'd
give it a chance.

They don't.

>I don't think the Live! is the first piece of hardware to have
>compatibility problems with Via chipsets.  Some Echo cards had similar
>problems I believe when the Via boards where initially released.  Does
>the patch fix it?

Not the crackling and not in all cases.  Also, Turtle Beach had
problems with crackling and Via chipsets too - back in the original
Montego days.

They fixed it.

There's a note on their technical support database acknowledging the
problem and indicating that it would be fixed in the Montego II card.
Furthermore the tech note goes on to state that the fix will be
present in all future Turtle Beach products.  They kept their word.

Creative Labs is yet to acknowledge **ANY** problems, be it crackling,
lockups or what have you despite the fact that the crackling problems
have been present since the days of th MVP3 and PCI128 two and a half
years ago - easily verifiable with a Usenet search.

>>2)  eats 30% of your bus bandwidth
>
>I have yet to see any real documentation on this.

Go check out John Howland's site.  Also, a number of folks at
ViaHardware have run tests and confirmed these figures.

>>3)  is prone to crackling incessantly on a variety of chipsets
>
>Again.. not the first card to suffer this problem.  Do we have any
>data to show this is substantially more likely with the Live! than
>other problematic cards?

Go visit Via Hardware and any Usenet sound forum.

>>4)  causes lockups with IDE transfers
>
>?

That's what the Via patch is supposed to fix.  the card is a bus hog
and this is the heart of the problem.  Funny, the Live! is the only
card to exhibit this problem...

>>6)  poor sound in comparison to the competition 9easily verifiable by
>>reviewers **AND** users alike)
>
>It seems to me that Creative Labs have implemented a pretty steep and
>low frq roll-off IN SOFTWARE for reasons I cannot explain.  This seems
>to be the main problem with the card.  I intend to demonstrate that
>the hardware is actually capable of better results.

That doesn't explain the lack of virtual placement, thin bass and
lackluster mids.

>>7)  a ripoff packaging scheme
>
>I have never been particularly inspired by Creative Labs marketing
>techniques.. yet people who complain about the packaging seem to
>ignore the bundled software and accessories which is unfair.

Not at all - there are much better options out there at less cost and
I use some of them.

>>8)  interestingly misleading claims of 5.1 capability when in fact it
>>is *faked* with software instead of being performed in hardware as is
>>the case with those cards with the Cirrus Logic and Philips
>>Thunderbird DSPs.
>
>Do they say 5.1 is decoded in hardware?

They certainly imply it.

>I mean.. the Santa Cruz uses DLS software synthesis doesn't it?
>(Correct me if I'm wrong).  If so.. do they make a big deal out of
>that on the box?

No but Turtle Beach doesn't make any secret of the fact that the card
is designed to have a variety of daughtercard plugins for specific
functionality to replace the software capabilities.  In fact, it's a
selling point.  CL can't do that - there are no hardware daughtercards
for AC3 decoding.

>>For the record, the problems with the Live! are extremely well
>>documented on the ViaHardware support forums (both old and new),
>>various other newsgroups including the Asus and AMD overclockers
>>forums and a variety of other sources scattered across the Internet
>>for any enterprising user with half a brain and semi-competent search
>>engine to find.
>>
>>Give it a rest - you've got nowhere to go.
>
>I am not saying the Live! is all things to all men.. I am just
>staggered at the bashing the card receives and over the past couple of
>three days have tried to establish what the issues are.  I haven't
>finished yet :-)

The bashing has gone on for considerably longer than three days.
Visit the usenet and VH forums and you'll see the issues have been
bandied about with varying degrees of frustration for time periods on
the order of months and even years (in the case of Usenet).

And I haven't seen any of your graveyards yet either - just a lot of
promises.

You want the issues?  The post you're answering has pretty much
encapsulated them.  I also note you're unable to answer any of them in
any manner capable of dismissing them.

>>Oh, and one more thing: not to defend him but deliberately defacing
>>someone's name is just simply **rude**.  If you have an argument with
>>Arny at least take him to task with dignity.
>
>Dignity?  With Mr Shit?  You don't seem to be aware what a deceptive,
>spamming, technically incompetent asshole he is.  IMO he deserves all
>the contempt he routinely receives from a wide variety of leading
>audio industry professionals and end-users alike.

I won't resort to four letter words and cheap invective in print - I
have a good enough command of the language and debating skills that
renders that quite unnecessary.

I don't always agree with Arny but I respect anyone's right to air
their viewpoint without that kind of ridicule.

Roj