🚀 go-pugleaf

I re-read Cassidy's article a couple of times before hitting the `F'
button.  I'm no great fan of ISC, their support, or their documentation
but the criticism is unnecessarily harsh (his privilege) and potentially
misleading.

In article <10732@attctc.Dallas.TX.US> cassidy@attctc.Dallas.TX.US (Cassidy Lynar) writes:
>In article <511090@nstar.UUCP> larry@nstar.UUCP (Larry Snyder) writes:
>>
>>Excellent support, indeed.   I did learn of the X7 update coming out that 
>>updates the mailer (sendmail). 
>
>	If you want a REAL mailer, get a copy of smail3, as ISC's mailers
>are hosed and half-baked... I switched to smail3 about 3 months ago, and all
>is well...

You don't have to use ISC's sendmail.  I really question the wisdom of a
small uucp-only site using sendmail.  ISC's mailers are not "hosed and
half-baked", but if you read the man page from a "*real* os", Sun, you
will find candid cautions regarding the nettles surrounding sendmail.  It
is entirely possible to hose a functional package if you set it up wrong.
It's even more likely that something like sendmail will fail to meet your
expectations if you do not understand it.  I've not seen any necessity for
sendmail in any site that's uucp only.  It claws and bites, ask anyone who
has to deal with it.  Smail 2.5 and 3 are quite adequate, agreed.  No one
is forced to use ISC's sendmail, the regular mailer works OK as well.

[ nn comments deleted, I'm ignorant ... ]

>>Next project - order X-Windows.  Bryan @ ISC mentioned that the next release 
>>of X (due in a couple of weeks) will support my ATI VGA Wonder board in the 
>
>	Humph! Why spend 800.00 on X11 when you can get the sources and build
>it yourself? ISC has a wonderful ability to take free sources, hack and screw
>it up, then turn around and charge you a great deal of money for it.

Cassidy, did you bring up X from scratch on '386/VGA?  If so, I salute you.
If you did and only spent 80 hours on it (_serious_ doubt here), then you're
worth $10/hr.  I don't know any $10/hr people who could bring up X11 from
scratch in 80 hours.  In the strictest sense of the word the sources are not
"free", but the license arrangements are reasonable.  What did they "hack
and screw up"?  I probably had more trouble bringing up X11 than anyone I
know and I find it quite even tempered.  I have worked with Sun's windows
and IBM's X.  ISC's work is a pleasure compared with the other two.  Did you
support most of the popular EGA/VGA/displays in your work?  VP/ix?  The
remarks are misleading and uncalled for.

>>Futher reading about X brings forth that fact that I *really* should have a 
>>math co-processor to run X - now what would you get - 4 more megs of ram 
>>(making 8 total) or a math co-processor (the 80387 would only be use with X)?
>
>	Personally, I would go for 4 more megs of ram.

He's right on the money here, I agree 100%

>>I consider the serial IO throughput the major problem with ISC - but feel 
>>that it can be handled - but still haven't found how.  Multiple 2400 baud
>
>	Alas, ISC *still* has yet to fix the bugs in the asy driver. My TB
>averages 600 - 800 *tops* using during transfers. I have the X5 update in use
>but it was only a minor help. One of these days, ISC *may* figure out how to 
>build a driver that works :)

Maybe so, maybe not, but there are a number of viable alternatives.  I
started using Jim Murray's driver before the X5 update came out and
routinely see 600-800cps receiving, 1100-1400cps transmitting.  That's on
a 4Mb 16MHz '386, not as much punch as Cassidy's system.  There is one
function name that conflicts with ISC's kernel, other than that it's plug
and play.  I don't mean to suggest that ISC's asy driver is any good,
quite the contrary.  I do mean that there are working alternatives to it
unless you just want to be stubborn and bitch a lot.  For the systems I
administer I try and collect the components that work and put them into
place.  Smail and the Murray driver work quite well in place of the ISC
components, so I don't feel the need to rag ISC about sendmail and asy.

[ ELM comments deleted ... ]

>	Hehe, anybody want to buy a 25 Mhz 386 w/4 megs ram and the full
>ISC 2.0.2 package? (Unlimited run-time, X11, TCP/IP, SD, 10 Plus crap,
>the list goes on...) I am getting a *real* os, (Sun 3/80 w/SunOS 4.0.3)

You've a rude shock in store for you.  On an average UNIX work mix (which
excludes standalone workstation stuff) the system you want to sell will
outperform a 3/80.  With your "*real* os" you've got a lot of vendor
overhead that has to be amortized over a smaller installed base.  That
means that add ons will be more expensive as well as service and support.
If you are spending money that you personally paid taxes on, I wonder if
the additional expense is worth the warm feeling.  If you're spending the
company's money and they can afford Sun, then you probably made a good
decision.  By that I mean that you'll have Sun warts, they ALL have warts.

>I have had it with the poor service and lousey track record of ISC.
>Bryan? You reading this? Where the hell are my floppies? Its been 3 weeks
>now... sheesh! 

I'll buy your TCP/IP, I can't get my diskettes either.  ISC service and
support is no worse than any others that you don't pay for and better
than some you do pay for.  They're frustrating and they make you mad, but
on balance they aren't worse than anyone else around the same price point.
Three weeks for floppies?  Horrors!  Bill Miskovetz had to wait four
months for his ESDI controller and Maxtor drive, I don't think you've got
that market cornered at all.

>>Regards to all, and the best of the Holiday Season to you and your family.
>
>	Same to you, and everyone else.. Have a Merry Christmas.
>
>-cassidy

Right on the money again, I agree 100%
-- 
Bill Kennedy  usenet      {attctc,att,cs.utexas.edu,sun!daver}!ssbn!bill
              internet    bill@ssbn.WLK.COM   or attmail!ssbn!bill