🚀 go-pugleaf

computers
From: tdrinkar@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu (Terrell Drinkard)
Path: cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu!tdrinkar

srt@cs.ucla.edu (Scott Turner) writes:
acm@sun.UUCP (Andrew MacRae) writes:
>>I do
>>know many Mac users though, and none of them have ever expressed a 
>>frustration at being unable to follow the chain of actions you 
>>describe.  This because they use their Macs *differently* than we 
>>use our PCs.

This is true.  I have some experience on PC's as well, and I've
never found a need to do an awk or a grep or to stream the output
of my spreadsheet to my paint program.  Color me a novice I guess.

>>Most of us have found that it is indeed harder to program for the Mac
>>and other systems of its kind.  But the difficulty we go through (in
>>theory) is what makes it easier for the end user.
>
>But that's true on any OS, of course.  Put more effort into the 
>programs you develop, and they'll be easier for the end-user to use.

This must be one of those 'in theory' things.  I've used many
different computer systems over the years (starting with a DEC
Cyber) and have not noticed you 'advanced' programmers doing much
work with us 'novice' users in mind.  Ever use an editor on a
mainframe?  Then use one on a Mac?  Even a PC?  Power does not
equate to usability.

>And call me a techno-dweeb, but I'm not a big fan of this "ignorant
>masses as the target user of computers" idea.  *My* idea of an "end
>user" is someone like myself.  He's computer literate, types very

I won't even go into the obvious gender bias you show here :-) but
I will take you up on your offer.  You, sir, are a techno-dweeb.  

>well, programs nearly as much as he uses applications, and so on.
>That's not exactly descriptive of the "average" user in today's
>culture, but I think that's where the computer culture is headed.  Not

Another opinion, one you are entitled to I suppose, but incorrect.
It has as much real world correspondence as the theory that the world 
is flat.  Just how many brilliant computer science types do you
think are going into the world these days?  Enough to subsidize all
of your wonderful micro-computer advances?  Not likely.  It is the
great unwashed like myself, just trying to get a job done, who are
paying for all these neato boxes.  Not you and those like you.

>towards the "everyone uses really neat applications but hardly anyone
>programs" culture that seems so prevalent an attitude.  Look around
>you.  *Everyone* technical programs, and that's spreading to the rest

Apparently the thought that there might be other users of computers
besides 'technical' people has not occured to you.  My mother is
writing a book, and bless her sweet soul, she hasn't even got an
idea as what programming might include, but she can get what she
wants done on a computer.  Easily.  I know several graphic
designers who don't program a lick, yet they are definite computer
users.  I know an architect who can't even do 'hello world' in
basic, yet he would not be without his computer.  Same for
draftsmen (I know a couple) who do work in AutoCAD, none of them
can program.  I know several school teachers who use computers to
keep track of grades and attendance, but who don't program.  These
people all tend to use (and I quote) "really neat applications."
 
I understand the price of Folgers will be rising in the near
future.

>of the society.  A machine that doesn't cater (one way or the other)
>to a literate, programming end-user is doomed in the long run.

You seem like the mechanic who is deploring the lack of mechanical
adeptness of the local automobile drivers.  Sorry, the days of the
all powerful computer guru dictating how and when the machines will
be used is over.  There will always be hotrod machines for you to
play with, but it is *that* kind of machine that is 'doomed', not
those that cater to the user.  After all, we outnumber you.  :-)

>    Scott R. Turner
>    UCLA Computer Science     "One more reason to hate California"
>    Domain: srt@cs.ucla.edu

If you are refering to your attitude, I agree.

Just one more refreshing opinion brought to you courtesy of-
                                                the Rockman

Disclaimer et la Signaturo:
Hell no, I'm not responsible for what I say!  If everyone were
responsible for what they said, we'd have had a balanced budget in
1984.