🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1113791108.231947.267180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

> Listed on Metrowerks' Discontinued Products web page
> http://www.metrowerks.com/Discontinued/default.htm (in addition to the
> Windows compiler) is:
> 
> PowerPlant Framework for Mac
> 
> Do I assume that this is the Classic version and does not include
> PowerPlant X?
> 
> Jonathan Hoyle

I think the website is mistaken.  PowerPlant for Mac was never sold as 
an individual product.  The cross platform PowerPlantXP for Windows was, 
and that's what I think should be listed on the webpage.

-- 
Isaac Wankerl
Metrowerks

In article <1113791108.231947.267180@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>Listed on Metrowerks' Discontinued Products web page
>http://www.metrowerks.com/Discontinued/default.htm (in addition to the
>Windows compiler) is:
>
>PowerPlant Framework for Mac
>
>Do I assume that this is the Classic version and does not include
>PowerPlant X?

PowerPlantXP the  cross platform version was discontinued

PowerParts for Windows which was never sold as a stand alone product was 
discontinued.

PowerPlant has been discontinued.

Ron

-- 
Metrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers 
to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff
        --   http://www.metrowerks.com/community  --

 Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com

In article <mwron-7D95F3.10003518042005@news.newsguy.com>,
 MW Ron <mwron@metrowerks.com> incorrectly wrote:

>PowerPlant has been discontinued.

ARRGGGHHH

PowerPlant has NOT been discontinued


I knew as soon as I hit Send  that I'd left out that word.

My apology to anyone that I confused.

Ron

-- 
Metrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers 
to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff
        --   http://www.metrowerks.com/community  --

 Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com

Hi Ron,

That clears it up nicely.  Thanks again!

Jonathan

Even if PowerPlant 'classic' is discontinued, you'll always have the
source code, and given the clear and well-thought-out design of the
framework, it is easy to extend to include new idioms, including
Quartz, sheets, drawers, HIViews etc.

That's the approach I'm taking, at least for now.

Gen

in article mwron-7D95F3.10003518042005@news.newsguy.com, MW Ron at
mwron@metrowerks.com wrote on 4/18/05 7:00 AM:

> PowerPlantXP the  cross platform version was discontinued

Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an unsupported
download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for projects that
aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for starters!

Alex Curylo wrote:
> in article mwron-7D95F3.10003518042005@news.newsguy.com, MW Ron at
> mwron@metrowerks.com wrote on 4/18/05 7:00 AM:
>
> > PowerPlantXP the  cross platform version was discontinued
>
> Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an
unsupported
> download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for
projects that
> aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for
starters!

Because they did not write PowerPlant for Windows: they licensed the
porting library Mac2Win from Altura and compiled it that way.  Mac2Win
is an older porting technology that essentially implemented the Mac API
(Classic and some parts of Carbon) in Windows.  Unfortunately, the
latest version of PowerPlant that Altura supported in their downloads
was the Classic version, not the Carbon version.  Presumably,
Metrowerks used a lot of #ifdef's or separate brnaches or something to
get around this problem; but it seems a moot point now.

As Metrowerks was one of the largest customers Altura had left, I doubt
that Mac2Win will have much further viability once CodeWarrior 10 is
released.

Jonathan Hoyle

<jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>Because they did not write PowerPlant for Windows: they licensed the
>porting library Mac2Win from Altura and compiled it that way.  Mac2Win
>is an older porting technology that essentially implemented the Mac API
>(Classic and some parts of Carbon) in Windows.  Unfortunately, the
>latest version of PowerPlant that Altura supported in their downloads
>was the Classic version, not the Carbon version.  Presumably,
>Metrowerks used a lot of #ifdef's or separate brnaches or something to
>get around this problem; but it seems a moot point now.
>
>As Metrowerks was one of the largest customers Altura had left, I doubt
>that Mac2Win will have much further viability once CodeWarrior 10 is
>released.

Do you have any documenting evidence of this assertation?

>>Do you have any documenting evidence of this assertation?

What is an "assertation"?  I suppose you mean "assertion"?  Also, I am
not sure which "assertion" you were asking about.  The existence of
Mac2Win itself is of course "documented" at their web site:
http://www.altura.ro/Mac2Win/mac2win_frame.htm .  Metrowerks' use of it
wasn't really a secret, as they have openly said so themselves in many
places, including this newsgroup, as well as a MacTech article
http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.12/12.04/Apr96FactoryFloor/
.  If it's my "assertion" that Metrowerks was one of Altura largest
customers, I admit that was pure speculation, as most cross-platform
apps have since moved away from Altura.  (I am told that Photoshop once
used this technology, but don't quote me on that.)

Mac2Win is also the reason that Metrowerks placed such an expensive
price tag on PowerPlant for Windows.  Because Altura charges royalties
on sales of Mac2Win ported apps, that had to be passed on to the
PowerPlant/Win customer, which of course was extremely unpopular.
(Besides being obscenely expensive, there are already many inexpensive
alternatives for cross-platform frameworks.)

A really cool test to tell if a Windows app was ported via Mac2Win is
the Secret About Box found in most ported applications: hit ALT-U-R-A
(spells "Altura") and you get the hidden Mac2Win About Box.  That
worked with CodeWarrior for Windows for versions 5 & 6, but stopped I
think sometime around CodeWarrior 8, probably due to ALT-U, ALT-R or
ALT-A being co-opted for some other feature.

Hope that helps.  Please let me know if you need further "documenting
evidence" of other "assertations".

Jonathan Hoyle

In article <1114404556.687207.165510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>Alex Curylo wrote:
>> in article mwron-7D95F3.10003518042005@news.newsguy.com, MW Ron at
>> mwron@metrowerks.com wrote on 4/18/05 7:00 AM:
>>
>> > PowerPlantXP the  cross platform version was discontinued
>>
>> Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an
>unsupported
>> download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for
>projects that
>> aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for
>starters!
>
>Because they did not write PowerPlant for Windows:

This assertion is wrong.  PowerPlant for Windows is not based on 
Altura's technology.   it is based on Metrowerks Lattitude and other 
Metrowerks developed technology.  

Metrowerks did use Altura's technology for our very early Windows hosted 
tools, and some things carried over when we went to PPxpn  I am fairly 
sure that PPxp  was developed in a black box without any knowledge of 
Altura technology and was not backwards engineered.

Ron

-- 
Metrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers 
to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff
        --   http://www.metrowerks.com/community  --

 Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com

<jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>ALT-A being co-opted for some other feature.
>
>Hope that helps.  Please let me know if you need further "documenting
>evidence" of other "assertations".

In other words, you have no evidence that PowerPlant for Windows used
Altura, now CodeWarrior. It's all ancedotal. I doubt Metrowerks was simply
a Mac2Win reseller...

Mac2Win was certainly used by Metrowerks at least as far as CodeWarrior
6 (a PowerPlant application), and that fact can be demonstrated by
bringing up the Mac2Win Secret About Box.  Furthermore, Greg Dow made
the following statement in the aforementioned article:

"To port code to Windows, I recommend that people investigate Mac2Win
from Altura Software. The Mac2Win libraries emulate the Mac Toolbox on
Windows. Metrowerks is using these libraries to port portions of the
CodeWarrior environment to Windows."

The latest version of PowerPlant still distributed by Altura was the
last pre-Carbonized version, which would make sense why Metrowerks had
to do some of their own work on this as well lately.  The engineers I
spoke to at WWDC were pretty open about their use of Mac2Win back then.
 Now, I don't doubt that Lattitude was a major part of this porting
process as well, and perhaps in the last couple versions of CodeWarrior
and PowerPlant, most all of Altura was removed.  But to suggest that no
part of Altura was used in the making of PowerPlant for Windows is just
too hard to swallow.

Unless of course Metrowerks had some independent and totally
coincidental reasons for duplicating Altura's Secret About Box.

Jonathan Hoyle

>>In other words, you have no evidence that PowerPlant for Windows used
Altura, now CodeWarrior.

Huh?  Didn't I just give such evidence?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding
since that sentence does not completely make sense to me.

>>It's all ancedotal.

If the word of a Metrowerks' lead engineer is considered anecdotal,
then yes, it is anecdotal.

>>I doubt Metrowerks was simply a Mac2Win reseller...

Again, you seem to misunderstand the nature of this.  Many
applications, including one I worked on for years, used Mac2Win as
their porting technology.  Such companies do not "resell" Mac2Win per
se, however, they do have to pay royalties on the sales of their
product, usually a percentage of the revenue intake.

I'm a little surprised that this is getting so angry.  I am doing
nothing more than passing on what Metrowerks engineers have told me in
the past.  If things have changed in the past couple releases, fine.
But I'm not just making up this Mac2Win connection, and I was just
trying to pass along the information as I know it.  I was not trying to
offend anyone.

Clearly MWRon knows more about this than I do, so I'll let him respond.

Jonathan Hoyle

<jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>If the word of a Metrowerks' lead engineer is considered anecdotal,
>then yes, it is anecdotal.

Indeed it is, as there's no documentation saying PP for windows used Altura,
and MWRon said PP for Windows wasn't using Altura.

PP for Windows is not necessarily the same implementation as early CW IDE
implementations. Remember when the windows hosted IDE suddenly started
working really nicely compared to before? :)

You know what happens when you assume...

>I'm a little surprised that this is getting so angry.  I am doing
>nothing more than passing on what Metrowerks engineers have told me in
>the past.  If things have changed in the past couple releases, fine.
>But I'm not just making up this Mac2Win connection, and I was just
>trying to pass along the information as I know it.  I was not trying to
>offend anyone.
>
>Clearly MWRon knows more about this than I do, so I'll let him respond.

No one is getting angry here.

>> PP for Windows is not necessarily the same implementation as early
>> CW IDE implementations. Remember when the windows hosted IDE
>> suddenly started working really nicely compared to before? :)


Yes, that's a good point.  Still, the Secret About Box thing seems like
a smoking gun to me.  In the end though it's a moot point as Metrowerks
is killing the product off.  :-(

In article <1114487184.984831.242500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

>Mac2Win was certainly used by Metrowerks at least as far as CodeWarrior
>6 (a PowerPlant application), and that fact can be demonstrated by
>bringing up the Mac2Win Secret About Box

Correct various components were not converted until they were 
re-written. 

>  Furthermore, Greg Dow made
>the following statement in the aforementioned article:

If I remember correctly (and I'm pretty confident I do) Greg Dow did not 
work on PowerPlant for Windows.  

>Unless of course Metrowerks had some independent and totally
>coincidental reasons for duplicating Altura's Secret About Box.

You are still looking at a Metrowerks application and not PowerPlantXP 
which is a porting library.   Those that are into these things could 
tell which components were converted using Altura and PowerPlant by how 
the bitmaps looked differently on Windows.


Ron

-- 
Metrowerks Community Forum is a free online resource for developers 
to discuss CodeWarrior topics with other users and Metrowerks' staff
        --   http://www.metrowerks.com/community  --

 Ron Liechty - MWRon@metrowerks.com - http://www.metrowerks.com

In article <1114505675.634965.190080@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

> >> PP for Windows is not necessarily the same implementation as early
> >> CW IDE implementations. Remember when the windows hosted IDE
> >> suddenly started working really nicely compared to before? :)
> 
> 
> Yes, that's a good point.  Still, the Secret About Box thing seems like
> a smoking gun to me.  In the end though it's a moot point as Metrowerks
> is killing the product off.  :-(

I think there is still some confusion here, mostly based on terminology 
and product names.

PowerPlant:
   A C++ source code library for building Mac applications.

Mac2Win:
   A porting library which implements a portion of the Mac Toolbox C API 
on Windows, allowing Mac source code to be recompiled to run on Windows.

PowerPlant for Windows (PowerPlantXP):
   An implementation of the PowerPlant C++ API on Windows, designed to 
help port PowerPlant programs to Windows. This was developed by 
Metrowerks without using Mac2Win.

CW IDE:
   The CodeWarrior integrated development environment, an executable 
program with both Mac and Windows versions. The first versions were 
created using PowerPlant and ran only on Macintosh.
   A Windows version was created (I don't recall exactly when), which 
used Altura's Mac2Win porting library.
   Later Windows versions used "PowerPlant for Windows". I don't know 
the details, but there may have been some versions where both Mac2Win 
and "PowerPlant for Windows" were used.


So, Metrowerks used Altura's Mac2Win to develop some early versions of 
the CodeWarrior IDE for Windows.

However, a separate product, called "PowerPlant for Windows", was 
developed independently by Metrowerks and used for later versions of the 
CodeWarrior IDE for Windows.

-- Greg Dow

Thanks, Greg, that clears it up pretty well for me!

By the way, who was the lucky company that picked you up after you left
Metrowerks last year?

In article <1114579597.131956.255800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
 "jonhoyle@mac.com" <jonhoyle@mac.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Greg, that clears it up pretty well for me!
> 
> By the way, who was the lucky company that picked you up after you left
> Metrowerks last year?

I am presently working for Macromedia (soon to be Adobe).

And to make this message on topic, both Macromedia and Adobe have used 
PowerPlant in some of their products.

-- Greg