🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <250@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>, wrp@biochsn.acc.virginia.edu (William R. Pearson) writes:
> 	The thing to remember about a MacII, as opposed to a Sun 3/50
> or Sun 3/60, is that it is an expandable machine with a bus. (One

True.  Although the Sun 3/60 is expandable to 24 megabytes of memory.
I bought my Sun because I wanted a Unix machine...I like Macs but I
would never invest in a Mac II ... it's a machine looking for a niche.

I would probably pick up an SE.  I am impressed with Plus and SE.  There
relativily cheap and would do the things I would need.  The Mac II is
no Unix workstation.  On the low end the 3/50 with 141 meg is also a
decent machine...a 3/50 + 141 meg disk + Mac Plus < Mac II.

> should also consider that the cost of a Sun 3/60 with a 144 Mbyte
> drive and 8 Meg memory + tape is around $19,000 list, let's not

whoa! i don't have my sun price list handy but...for $14,900+450=$15,350
gets you :
---------------------
(I forget but for an additional 1-2K you can get the 141 mbyte disk.
Subtract $1-2K for monochrome.)

Hardware :
A Sun 3/60 
*20 Mhz 68020
*16" color (1152x900),  
 (monochrome is cheaper - still 1152x900) 1 bit bw
 (hi rez mono also available -1600x1280, don't know the price) 1 bit bw
*8 bitplanes, 
*4 meg ram, 
*71 mbyte disk, 
*60 Meg tape drive, 
*Ethernet card
*Naturally FPU and MMU
*DMA
*optical mouse :)

Software
*SunOS (Unix), 
*Fortran, 
*C, 
*Pascal, 
*Suntools (clock, defaultsedit,lock, perf,mouse editor, mail, iconeditor, 
	shelltools,fonttool, dbxtool (mouse based debugger based on dbx) 
	etc.),  Customizable menu system.
*nroff Unix tools (that all those PC-based Unix guys like to unbundle)

*Libraries (all the usual Unix stuff)
*SunView library(2D CGI-based primitives) and 
*SunView II libraries based on NeWS/X (summer-fall)
*SunCore library (3D Core standard,handle rotation transforms, etc)
*NeWS library will be standard in NeWS/X (summer-fall)
*X11 library will be standard in NeWS/X (summer-fall)
*X11 is available from MIT now ($150 or free)
*NeWS (now optional $100 will become standard)
	*postscript shell
	*postscript previewer
	*NeWS server
	*etc.
*NFS (Network File System - networking software)

Documentation
*FULL* the Unix documentation plus Sun's documentation : primers on
Unix, Suntools, SunPro, etc.
---------------------
I am probably forgetting something.

I should mention that Sun is rumored to have a Sun 386 pending
arrival relatively soon.

Okay take the above prices and now begin discounting...:)
To do any type of development (except maybe Mac OS) I would buy Sun.
The Sun 3/60 is comparable in performance to Apollo's new high/low end
DN 4000...but the software, documentation and hardware is much better
in my opinion.

> compare Apple list prices with Sun discounted prices).  If you want

As can be seen the prices quoted seem pretty much in line with Sun
list prices.  Sun is extremely competitive and your University/Company
probably get discounts on the order 20-40% - for all i know more.

> to get a Sun with any kind of expansion capability, you have to buy
> a $25,000 (list) machine.  While Apple is going to have to come up
Again, it depends on what you want to do...for example the NuBus from
Apple typically has some very expensive 24 bit graphics cards.  Their
aren't yet a whole lot of things out.

The VME bus (what Apple SHOULD have gone with, instead of their 10Mhz
bus) has alot more going for it.  LISP coprocessors, frame grabbers,
graphics coprocessors, etc. Apple played some games in the design of
their NuBus...(read the Mac Today article recently written on the
Mac NuBus to get more information).  Incidentally the recent announcement
of the Sun 4/110 (low high end -7 MIPS) at under 19K bodes well for
Sun dropping their Sun 4 line prices...


> with some way to let people buy A/UX without purchasing an 80 Mbyte
> disk (since people are using 300 Mbyte Wren IVs which cost around
> $3K), Apple's list prices are NOT out of line with other 68020
> offerings, especially for machines with busses.

Except with no DMA, 

> 	The prices are farther out of line compared to an IBM PS/2-80
> or a Compaq 386/20 with Xenix/Unix/AIS, but again, not so far out
> of line compared to those manufacturer's list prices.  The problem(?)
> is that no manufacturer can compete with a $5000 no-name 386 clone with
> a 100 Mbyte drive and Xenix/Unix.  But those machines do not offer
> a standard graphics interface, the potential to run Mac programs,
> or the support of a major manufacturer.

Again what impact 386 Sun running Unix with all or most of the above???

> 	I wonder how many of the net-readers pay list price for
> any of these products?  Comparing Apple list to Sun/IBM/clone discount

Again the price I gave, I believe is list. (i'm-sure-i'll-here-if-its-not)


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The Opinions expressed are my own. No one else would have them.
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