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In article <10928@duke.cs.duke.edu> gleicher@duke.cs.duke.edu (Michael Gleicher) writes:
>I recently purchased LightSpeed C (2.11, upgraded to 2.15 from over the
>net upgrades), and I must say it is one of the poorest products that I
>have seen for a computer.
>
	You're in a VERY small minority, because EVERY person I've shown
	it to, all experienced programmers, have been very impressed with
	it's ease of use. The project concept in LSC is very nice to
	work with. Also, people like Aldus and Adobe obviously found LSC
	suitable - PageMaker and Illustrator are both written in LSC.

>1) The documentation is awful. In general, I have not seen a well documented
>	product on the Mac (I'm used to the PC world). Most of the time
>	it isn't too important as Mac programs are easy to use. Not so
>	with something as complex as a C development system.
>	All the lightspeed manual does is say how great the compiler is,
>	how it is the ultimate environment, how much better it ill make
>	programmers.
>	The library reference is incomplete, and doesn't say little things
>	like which headers & libraries you must include.
>
	I find the documentation more than adequate, I only look up library
	manual entries. Something as complex as a C development system?
	Is a C development system supposed to be so lacking of
	user-friendliness that we need 700 page manuals? You're the first
	person I've seen on the net who has found the documentation
	insufficient. However, since your used to the PC world, you expect
	huge manuals.

	As for the library reference, the non-MacTraps library references
	all indicate the headers needed. But do you REALLY need to have
	the same thing for the Mac Toolbox stuff? Don't you read Inside
	Mac?

>2) The editor sucks and you're stuck with it.
>	The editor is so bad it isn't worth mentioning. Little things
>	like a key to go to the end of a line, clear to end of line.
>	When writing code, I need my hands for typing, not to do everything
>	with the mouse.

	Oh! We mustn't use the mouse (oh yeah, I mean pointing device..:-))
	for things must we? Yeah, I guess one could use the arrow keys
	more. I think CAPPS offers this, so I would expect to see some
	key shortcuts in LSC 3.0.

>	I thought that under Multi-Finder I'd have MicroEmacs 3.8m (a
>	good editor with the mac interface) or some other thing running
>	side-by-side. But this won't work because lightspeed keeps everything
>	in memory.
>
	MicroEmacs is a good editor with some semblance of a (not THE) Mac
	interface.

>3) The system is extremely limited by memory constraints.
>	If I wanted to be limited to small code/data segments I'd have
>	saved $3000 dollars and bought a 386 PC. But I want to be able to
>	run Big programs on my Mac 2. I don't want to see Code Segment
>	too large, although this is bearable considering the Mac loader.
>	What isn't acceptable is seeing "Data Segment too Big".
>
	
	You complain about the documentation, but the above paragraph indicates
	that didn't read Chapter 5 thoroughly. Look at page 5-3, which
	shows you how to segment your project. The above paragraph also
	is damning evidence that you haven't got stuck into reading Inside
	Macintosh. You are limited to 32K Code segments, but any dev. system
	will allow you to create LOTS of CODE segments.

	It's quite easy to get around the 32K Data segment limit by
	allocating your own blocks of memory for large structures/arrays.

>4) The system doesn't really handle Multi-Finder.
>	Under multifinder, I keep getting "Out Of Memory" when I try to
>	compile programs (the program is about 2800 lines long in one
>	file). Big programs won't run either.
>
	Now this one is a REAL GEM! It's been a long time since I have
	read something that has had me fall off my chair and send me into
	fits of laughter.. 
		
	LSC doesn't 'handle' Multi-Finder? The SIZE resource shows 512K
	as a partition size, which I find too small. Christ, you can't
	do much with MF on a 1 meg Macintosh. Mind you, on a 2-meg Mac,
	I allocate 784K for LSC and it works like a charm. I also find
	a cache of 192-256K worthwhile for all the header files - speeds
	things up.

>5) The system doesn't support the 68881
>	No gripe here. I knew that I was getting this when I bought it.
>
	If it wasn't a gripe, what was it? 68881 support is RSN.

>6) I'm not sure how robust the compiler is.
>	The compiler seems to choke on some simple syntax things.
>	for example:
>		unsigned Book[][50];	doesn't work 
>			or
>		extern unsigned Book[][50];
>		Book = (void *) malloc(...)	gives a bizzare error
>
	Read Appendix D.

>7) The error messages are useless.
>	The compiler stops on the first error. It gives this obnoxious
>	box to click in. The messages aren't too useful. It doesn't show you
>	exactly where the error is.
>
	Yeah, let's go back to listing 20,000 errors at one go, with 99%
	of them relating to the first error! Lightspeed is so fast, one
	error at a time isn't a problem (at least when you have a HD, and
	some memory (1 meg is OK). The 'obnoxious' dialog box doesn't need
	to be clicked in - try enter or return.

>Admittedly, I don't know the alternatives. I'm used to working on the PC,
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
					    SAY NO MORE! SAY NO MORE! :-)
>
>Also, what I've been trying to do is to take a UNIX/MSDOS program
>(GnuChess) and get it to run on the Macintosh. This is probably not
>what lightspeed was meant for. 
>But GnuChess should be easy compared to the next on I want to try.
>
Well, both rogue and hack were ported using LSC - maybe if you read the
manual...

>I don't at all regret making the jump into the 20th century and buying a 
>Mac ][. I do regret wasting the $95 bucks on LightSpeed C.
Good on you for buying a Mac II, and buy MPW C - you'll be right at home :-)

>
>Michael Lee Gleicher			(-: If it looks like I'm wandering
>	Duke University			(-:    around like I'm lost . . .
>E-Mail: gleicher@cs.duke.edu)(or uucp	(-:
>Or P.O.B. 5899 D.S., Durham, NC 27706	(-:   It's because I am!
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
					    Never a truer word written! :-)


Jason Haines

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