🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <MCGLK.93Jan4041118@yang.cpac.washington.edu>  
mcglk@cpac.washington.edu (Ken McGlothlen) writes:
>>I'm not the kind of person to jump on a bandwagon easily.  At least, not
>>anymore.  Let's face it:  the computer market isn't easy on visionaries.
>>
>>So I've been fairly skeptical of new offerings touting themselves as the
>>end-all-be-all of computers.  *Everybody* says that, and most of the time,
>>they're wrong, due to unforeseen circumstances, simple screwups, or bad  
timing.
>>
>>Take the Amiga.  Originally, it was a fine piece of hardware, and for its  
first
>>version, wasn't all *that* buggy.  I thought it had a nice two-tiered  
approach,
>>and had a lot of the right ideas.  It was fun.  And then, Commodore bought  
it,
>>and it gradually became---well, dull.  Uninspiring.  Innovation for the Amiga
>>eventually died as Commodore screwed up its marketing, product support,  
upgrade
>>schedule, and its *vision*.  I still like the idea of the Amiga, but I
>>couldn't, in good conscience, buy one now and commit a lot of myself to it.
>>

Agree 100%.  I did the Amiga 1000. 2000. 2500 thing...It was a fun/bumpy ride.

>>So I was fairly skeptical of NeXT.  Steve Jobs has a very strange management
>>style, and seems to have some very strange priorities as far as his vision
>>goes, such as his seeming disdain of networking, 

err...I don't follow you here.  NeXTs and NeXTstep are both very network
oriented.  Let's list a few features:

	NFS		*Network* File System
	Novell		Novell *network*ing
	EtherTalk	Apple *network*ing
	TCP/IP		Inter*network*ing
	NeXTmail	*Network* mail
	RemoteObjects	the coolest kinda' *network*ing
	  
>>or his apparent inability to
>>see things from outside his own little multimillion-dollar world, where some  
of
>>us have to really scrounge to buy a Nifty Box that we just can't live  
without.

Talk to Sam Goldberger at Spherical Solutions - bids start at $1995.00
Which is pretty reasonable for a 68040 machine - of any kind (at least 
for the next few months :-)

>>Sure, he tries to come out with something nifty, but most of the time, the  
box
>>that eventually comes out is often crippled by some fatal oversight (unless  
his
>>engineers slip something in without his knowledge, as they did with the
>>original 128K Mac).  So I didn't have high hopes---I feared that I'd just be
>>running into a lot of hype, and quite honestly, sitting down with a NeXT
>>running 1.0 was *not* an exercise for the impatient.  ("Okay, here we---wait,
>>what just happened?  Did we crash?  What's *this*?")
>>
>>Now, I'll be honest with you:  I think the NeXT is one of the neatest, most
>>promising combinations of hardware and software that there are on the market,
>>one of the prettiest combinations *ever* in the history of computing.  But  
it's
>>only been in the last year that I'd admit this.  Between NeXTStep 3.0 and
>>DBkit, it's an impossible machine to ignore.  I want one.  It would be the
>>first computer that I'd really invest significantly in.
>>

Well then do it...come on!...Don't be shy!

>>So why do I feel that familiar feeling?  Why does part of my brain faintly
>>hear, somewhere in the back of my head, in a radio announcer's manic voice:
>>"NeXT:  The Amiga of the '90s!"?
>>
Not!
Never!
No way!
Why? Look...the Amiga was cool.  But as much as Commodore tried to convince
us it was a *serious* machine...it wasn't.  It was (is) a computer made
primarily for doing video graphics work (and it does it pretty well). There 
is no way on earth you're gonna' convince your IS managers to put Amigas 
on their programmers desks.  Put simply, Amigas and Commodore never gained
acceptance from the BUSINESS community (O.K. - excluding video studios).  NeXT
on the other hand is making it big in business, government (DARPA, NSA, 
etc), and higher ed.  Hell, even Apple has had to invest big bucks in 
marketing to gain moderate acceptance in the business place.

>>I'm afraid of investing a lot of my loyalty in a company which may screw up
>>rather badly.  And I haven't seen a lot of signs that NeXT is really going to
>>get past this fragile stage.  I'm a little afraid that I'll start to feel  
about
>>NeXT the way I currently feel about Apple---which is Not Pretty.
>>
>>For example, NeXT had half the right idea at first, targeting educational
>>institutions.  If you want to capture the imagination of the computer world,
>>get the young ones addicted early.  If you can get college graduates going  
out
>>into the world with a degree and a strong addiction for your computer,  
they're
>>gonna' buy one, or convince their employer to buy them one.  

NeXT is still growing at a healthy pace in the higher ed market.  Countless
schools are setting up freshman calculus courses using Mathematica running on 
networks of NeXTs (almost makes me wanna' take it again...almost!)

>>But NeXT seemed to
>>be totally ignoring the corporate world at the time, which was a major
>>financial mistake.  You don't get your money from universities.  But NeXT has
>>now largely abandoned the educational market, which is an equally silly
>>mistake.

This is perception, not reality.
  
>>NeXT *needs* to adapt an aggressive two-tiered approach, simply to
>>become as visible as its contenders.  If it were as visible, there would be  
no
>>contest---IBM, Apple and Sun would start getting buried in short order.
>>

Takes time and money (Rome wasn't conquered...)

>>Another thing:  Where's the high end?  Where's the low end?  Hello?
>>
>>NeXT's technological range at the moment is single-CPU '030s and '040s  
running
>>at between 25 and 33MHz.  We're talking 40 MIPS machines *maximum*, even with  
a
>>cube with an '030 dedicated to print stuff.  Whatever happened to that  
four-CPU
>>M88k NeXT they were talking about, the one that would pull around 100 MIPS?   
Is
>>NeXT serious about NeXTStep-486, and are they thinking about coming out with  
a
>>NeXT based around the Intel chip rather than the 68K?  Are they thinking  
about
>>the Pentium?  Is NeXT actively trying to cut the costs of its low-end boxes
>>while trying to push the envelope of its high end a bit?  Are they  
considering
>>making some of the functions of the NeXTdimension more affordable?  I'm not
>>*even* going to mention a portable NeXT. . . .  :)
>>
>>I have to confess that it sure looks as though the NeXT is a bit stagnant  
right

If history is any indication, NeXT's next NeXT will knock everyone's socks
off.  

>>now.  Prices haven't changed all that much, very few advances are being made.
>>It looks like NeXT is *mostly* trying to find corporate sales, and not that
>>concerned about making itself more appealing with a wider range of products,  
>>or more affordable products.

Small companies need to focus on those markets in which they do well...let 
the market *pull* them (read: market driven = success) instead of trying
to *push* their products on companies that may not need them.


>>
>>NeXT also seems to have forgotten one of its most important resources:  its
>>volunteer evangelists.  Hard information from NeXT is difficult to get.  I've
>>been listening for some time, but I hear *nothing* firm on what NeXT's R&D
>>department is doing at the moment, and so how can I say good things about
>>NeXT's future?  I'd *love* to be able to say, "You think *this* is neat?   
>>Wait
>>a few months---these guys are going to come out with a machine five times
>>faster!"
>>

Hey, it's like a game of football.  You don't want your quarterback
telling the opposing teams defense what play he's about to call. Capish? (sp)

>>NeXT also seems confused about its place in the market.  

They didn't quite know what they had

>>They can hardly be
>>blamed for that, though---they're in a unique position.  This is the first  
time
>>that high-end PCs have been priced *higher* than a very powerful, wonderful
>>multiuser graphical-interfaced box.  NeXT needs to not only go after Sun, but
>>it needs to show that it's more capable than either IBMisms or Appleisms at a
>>comparable price.  And they could.
>>
>>Of course, it would require some cooperation with some of the software  
vendors.
>>It's hard to find software for the NeXT which doesn't run under $200.  C'mon,
	
I see the edu in your sig. So here it goes.

	3DReality	$99
	Concurrence	$64
	Diagram!	$25
	SoftPC		$179 (Texas A&M MicroCenter student price)
	WriteNow2.1	$99 ($159 from NeXTConnection)
	Create		$99
	DataPhile	$99
	WordPerfect	$150 (Texas A&M MicroCenter student price)

**Prices may vary.  See your dealer for details
 
>>people, it can't be *that* hard for you to write programs on the NeXT.  If  
you
>>folks would cooperate a bit, and bring those prices down to the range of  
prices
>>that you see in the PC world (or slightly lower), you might convince more and
>>more people to use that platform, which would only be *good* for you.  Right?
>>
>>I fear that if NeXT goes down for the count, greed will be one of the major
>>factors.
>>

Price/performance wise NeXT is still competitive with Suns.  Factor in 
software and it kicks Suns ass.  HP's got the highest price/performance
ratio (this week) but you end up using X11 - no thanks!  Again, factor in 
software and NeXT still looks pretty good (especially as a client in 
a client/server world.  HP's for the servers)

>>C'mon, NeXT.  I want to believe in you.  I love your machine.  I want one of
>>your machines in my computer room.  I want to develop on your wonderful
>>hardware and software.  I really, really, really want you to succeed, to take
>>the market by storm, to make the planet a slightly better place overall, if
>>only by sending Apple and IBM into fearful quivering.
>>
>>Please don't screw up.  *Please*.
>>
>>				---Ken McGlothlen
>>				   mcglk@cpac.washington.edu
>>				   mcglk@cpac.bitnet

I can sympathize with what your saying (feeling).  But in all honesty
I have to say that my decision to buy a NeXT (Dec 14, 1990) was one of the 
best decisions I've ever made.  It:
	1) has opened my eyes to object-oriented technologies
	   (I didn't stop with Obj-C though)
	2) brought me opportunites that otherwise would not have been
	   (Personally and professionally)
	3) brought me closer a community of incredibly talented and 
	   creative engineers, programmers, students and individuals.
	4) has made this EE seriously think about goin' CS.

Hey.  I didn't ask for all this when I got my NeXT (truth is, I just 
wanted a good C environment and Mma)

My advise is: 
	1) Take a couple steps back.
	2) Take a deep breath.
	3) run forward and dive in!

Come on.  The water's fine :-)

--
Ronald Pomeroy		geez...I need a new sig
Advanced Micro Devices
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)

In article <1993Jan5.003434.23442@dvorak.amd.com> rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com writes:
>
>Hey, it's like a game of football.  You don't want your quarterback
>telling the opposing teams defense what play he's about to call. Capish? (sp)

Well, it's just that Steve uses the old "Silent Snap Count on 2". We
wouldn't mind hearing "RISC  31, RISC 31, Set, HUT!!!" ;-) At least we'd
know that they were going to play the ball... 8-].

- db

In article <C0E0Lx.2C7@cs.mcgill.ca>, samurai@cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy BROCKBANK) writes:
> Well, it's just that Steve uses the old "Silent Snap Count on 2". We
> wouldn't mind hearing "RISC  31, RISC 31, Set, HUT!!!" ;-) At least we'd
> know that they were going to play the ball... 8-].

Anybody see this? Comments?

Open Systems Today 1/4/93, Page 3, "RISC Ports planned for NextStep":

"Next Computer will be porting NextStep to several RISC platforms, company
officials have confirmed."

The article doesn't name specific platforms, but lists leading candidates
as: SPARC, PA-RISC, Alpha AXP and PowerPC.

It goes on to state that NeXT has already settled on a RISC platform for
it's own systems. Of course they won't reveal which.

					Doug

People need to cut NeXT a bit of a break. They are not a huge
company. It takes alot of resources to support previous products
AND do a new version AND fix bugs AND port to multiple platforms.

Their software group is small, has undergone a number of changes
of management and direction, and has lost a number of senior
people.

I think NeXT is doing an impressive job given the size of their
software group. Believe me, biting off a 486 port that runs
on even 50% of the configurations out in the world is a huge
piece of work -- not in brainpower, but in sheer details and
number of people to manage them.

--
Edward Jung, Software Architect     edwardj@microsoft.com
Advanced Systems, Microsoft Corp.

In article <1993Jan5.211623.15279@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> wag1@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (d.wagley) writes:
>In article <C0E0Lx.2C7@cs.mcgill.ca>, samurai@cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy BROCKBANK) writes:
>> Well, it's just that Steve uses the old "Silent Snap Count on 2". We
>> wouldn't mind hearing "RISC  31, RISC 31, Set, HUT!!!" ;-) At least we'd
>> know that they were going to play the ball... 8-].
>
>Anybody see this? Comments?
>
>Open Systems Today 1/4/93, Page 3, "RISC Ports planned for NextStep":
>
>"Next Computer will be porting NextStep to several RISC platforms, company
>officials have confirmed."
>
>The article doesn't name specific platforms, but lists leading candidates
>as: SPARC, PA-RISC, Alpha AXP and PowerPC.
>
>It goes on to state that NeXT has already settled on a RISC platform for
>it's own systems. Of course they won't reveal which.
>
>					Doug
>

This was in the Toronto Globe and Mail on Wednesday:

JOBS IN TALKS WITH HEWLETT

New York Times Service

SAN FRANCISCO -- Setven Jobs may have found a way to move his struggling
work station company to centre stage in the desktop computer industry.

  Next Inc,. Jobs's five-year-old maker of work stations, is now in
discussions with the Hewlett-Packard Co. over licensing Next's Nextstep
software technology, three executives familiar with the talks say,

  The discussions between Next and Hewlett-Packard were initially not
limited to Next's software, which is widely viewed as the industry's
most innovative.  Originally, the talks included the possiblity of a
Hewlett-packard investment in Next and the possibility that Next might
use a version of Hewlett-Packard's microprocessor in a versin of its work
station.

  A broader relationship has apparently been ruled out by Hewlett-Packard
executives.
-- 

Mark T. Dornfeld                              Voice: (416) 234-9048
CYANTIC Systems                               Facsimile: (416) 234-0477
101 Subway Crescent Suite 2103                Email: mark@cyantic.com

In article <1993Jan5.211623.15279@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
wag1@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (d.wagley) wrote:
> 
> In article <C0E0Lx.2C7@cs.mcgill.ca>, samurai@cs.mcgill.ca (Darcy BROCKBANK) writes:
> 
> The article doesn't name specific platforms, but lists leading candidates
> as: SPARC, PA-RISC, Alpha AXP and PowerPC.
> 
> It goes on to state that NeXT has already settled on a RISC platform for
> it's own systems. Of course they won't reveal which.
> 

A couple weeks ago PCWeek had a special section reviewing new 32-bit
operating systems.  I was *really* glad to see that they included NeXTSTEP
as a contender.  Anyway, in an interview with Bob Lawton they were asking
about what hardware platforms were going to be supported in the coming
year.  Lawton's response was that in the 1993 timeframe, NeXTSTEP would be
seen on "about 5 or 6" different hardware platforms.  I figured this meant:

68040
68060 (maybe these would be considered one)
486
88110 (with Data General)
And some other RISC platform(s)

Doesn't leave room for too many if Lawton's statements are accurate.

Paul
.........................................................................
Paul Marcos                                                (415) 966-0873
Kaleida Labs, Inc.                                     marcos@kaleida.com
.........................................................................