🚀 go-pugleaf

Matt Slot <fprefect@umich.edu> wrote:
] Looking behind the standard interfaces != reverse engineering.

This is an issue of risk assessment, actually.  I'm probably just
being too protective of my private parts.  8-).

] I have at hand a book (from the bookstore) documenting several of
] the above hardware components, and I have downloaded several more
] from the Apple FTP site.

Name it, I'll buy it (if I haven't already).

] >] An OS that doesn't support any form of backwards-compatiblity will not
] >] succeed. Business and consumer users will not be inclined to make the
] >] upgrade if it means thousands of dollars of software won't work.
] >
] >OK, if you're right, then making the information available will
] >only result in OS's that won't succeed.  And the parity of the
] >universe has been maintained.
] >
] >Of course your statement is totally at odds with the existance
] >of DEC and IBM and HP proprietary operating systems, since the
] >first version of such OS's would, following your rules, have
] >failed.
] 
] Yes, but how large was their installed base (esp. in the markets I 
] listed)? Part of the baggage an OS has to carry is the number of 
] users who are using it, and consumers will see such an action as
] abandonment.
] 
] It may have happened in the past, and it will probably happen again,
] but I don't think it will be that common in today's computers.


It probably won't, you're right.  On the other hand, you might
as well abandon people who aren't putting money in your pockets
(realize that I bought an Amiga 1000 early on, so I know exactly
what being abandoned feels like).  That's just cold economics.
Businesses exist for no other reason than to make money.

] I am both an applications and a systems level programmer on the Mac,
] and I have seen the warts inside and out. Its true that programming
] to the metal is much more difficult than using the easy and compatible
] OS interfaces, but the documents *are* out there. Its true that HRP
] will provide a good reference point and that documents would be great, 
] but you are upset because you don't have the information on a silver
] platter today. Is there any reason Apple should be seeding you?

I don't want Apple to "seed" me.  I'm willing, as I've stated
before, to go out and buy hardware (seeding them 8-)) as soon
as my confidence is high enough that I believe a port would be
feasible (boot + X console + networking).  I've basically got
the boot documentation all hashed out.

Documentation of the hardware is the minimal level of the bar
in a commodity market.  I'm not trying to raise the bar on them,
I'm just pointing out that they've raised the bar on themselves
by attempting to change their market.

If you want to point me at documentation, I'll shut up.  8-).  I
think reverse engineering the hardware interfaces is where I'd
draw the line and stick to programming the 604 Ultra that I *do*
have the documentation for.

] >Fine.  Then they don't have to buy the documentation.  You are
] >arguing the difference between a delivery driver (an application
] >writer) and an auto mechanic (a systems programmer).  A delivery
] >driver does not need the Chilton's for his vehicle.
] 
] Nope... I am talking about people working on Copland and
] several other systems-level programmers. Apart from the work
] for Apple, their has been no need to interface directly to
] the hardware. In fact, I myself have worked on external file
] systems, link-layer networking drivers, and other driver
] software -- guess what... no need! Sure, there are holes in
] the documentation, but they are being filled rather steadily.

I'd be more than happy to see the holes filled in.  I think that
any undertaking of an OS port to a PowerMac needs to take into
account all the hardware a PPC box can come with by default.  If
it can't then it's no good.  Meaning the large holes have to be
filled in first.

"Never do a vast thing in a half-vast way".  8-).


					Regards,
                                        Terry Lambert
                                        terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.