🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <403nll$ijj@seminole.gate.net>,
Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
>Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) wrote:
>: Who cares?  Today, there are orders of magnitude more typewriter users
>: than Mac users. 
>
>Well, no.  To have "orders of magnitude" more typewriter users than Mac 
>users, you'd have to have 100 times as many typewriter users than Mac 
>users.  There are about 20 million Mac users (at least- assuming *only* 
>one user per Mac).  That would mean 2 *billion* typewriter users.  Or one 
>out of three people in the world using typewriters.  Don't bet on it.

You have made the naive assumption that Dan meant "orders" in base 10.
Using base 2, a 4-fold advantage would qualify as "orders of magnitude"... 

Since Dan was discussing computers, you should have realized that base 2 
is assumed; The binary numbering system is used universally in computing...

--
 Joe Sloan     jjs@engr.ucr.edu   http://dostoevsky.ucr.edu
     Win95? No, none for me, thanks - I'm already running Linux...
 Microsoft is not the answer - Microsoft is the question; the answer is NO!

Joe Sloan (jjs@dostoevsky.ucr.edu) wrote:

: You have made the naive assumption that Dan meant "orders" in base 10.
: Using base 2, a 4-fold advantage would qualify as "orders of magnitude"... 

: Since Dan was discussing computers, you should have realized that base 2 
: is assumed; The binary numbering system is used universally in computing...

You left out the smileys- someone might actually think you're serious 
about this...

-- 

Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

Joe Sloan spewed forth the following profound insight:

==> In article <403nll$ijj@seminole.gate.net>,
==> Chad Irby <cirby@news.gate.net> wrote:
==> >Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) wrote:
==> >: Who cares?  Today, there are orders of magnitude more typewriter users
==> >: than Mac users. 
==> >
==> >Well, no.  To have "orders of magnitude" more typewriter users than Mac 
==> >users, you'd have to have 100 times as many typewriter users than Mac 
==> >users.  There are about 20 million Mac users (at least- assuming *only* 
==> >one user per Mac).  That would mean 2 *billion* typewriter users.  Or one 
==> >out of three people in the world using typewriters.  Don't bet on it.

==> You have made the naive assumption that Dan meant "orders" in base 10.
==> Using base 2, a 4-fold advantage would qualify as "orders of magnitude"... 

...as well as the naive assumption of an integer number of orders of 
magnitude.  The number of "orders" could be any real number greater than 1
and still be grammatically correct.  1.1 orders of magnitude in base 2 is
about 41.4 million.

   					-Caj may be just one person, but
					 he's -7.3010 orders of magnitude
					 more than all the Mac Users in 
					 the world!!!  
		

Chad Irby (cirby@news.gate.net) wrote:
: Joe Sloan (jjs@dostoevsky.ucr.edu) wrote:

: : You have made the naive assumption that Dan meant "orders" in base 10.
: : Using base 2, a 4-fold advantage would qualify as "orders of magnitude"... 

: : Since Dan was discussing computers, you should have realized that base 2 
: : is assumed; The binary numbering system is used universally in computing...

: You left out the smileys- someone might actually think you're serious 
: about this...

You mean he's not?

<v i r t u a l s m i l e y>


: -- 

: Chad Irby           /    My greatest fear: that future generations will,
: cirby@gate.net     /      for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."

--
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In <403nll$ijj@seminole.gate.net> cirby@news.gate.net (Chad Irby) writes:

>Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) wrote:
>: Who cares?  Today, there are orders of magnitude more typewriter users
>: than Mac users. 
>
>Well, no.  To have "orders of magnitude" more typewriter users than Mac 
>users, you'd have to have 100 times as many typewriter users than Mac 
>users.  There are about 20 million Mac users (at least- assuming *only* 
>one user per Mac). 

I've no idea whether Apple sold 20 million Mac's or not, but you're making a
couple of bad assumptions:

1.  ALL the Mac's sold are still in use.  I have some troubles imagining
    someone using an 128K Mac today.

2.  Every Mac user has only one Mac.  Many Mac fans/bigots have two
    (one 68k and one PPC) or more (add one portable to the above) Mac's.

>That would mean 2 *billion* typewriter users.  Or one
>out of three people in the world using typewriters.  Don't bet on it.

What's wrong assuming 1 in 3 people live in a civilised country and not
having a computer at home or even at office?
>
>: And more typewriters are sold every day than Mac's.
>
>Not any more. 

Any hard data?

>There's not that many companies even *making* them any 
>more- they've all switched over to making printers for computers.  

Care to provide the names of some of "all" those companies who have
switched to printers for computers?

>All of the typewriters I see in offices nowadays are "legacy systems," 
>and aren't being replaced when they wear out.  The only places that still 
>use typewriters as a major office tool are decripit companies and 
>government bureaucracies.

You forgot the home users (and I've seen _many_ homes with a typewriter
_and_ a computer) and those who have to fill preprinted forms.
>
>: They're one order of magnitude cheaper and don't become obsolete with the
>: same speed as the Mac's do.
>
>A cheap, professional quality typewriter costs anywhere from three to 
>five hundred dollars.  They'd have to cost under a hundred to be "one 
>order of magnitude cheaper."  

Right.  A new, cheap, typewriter costs about $100 here and the cheapest
Mac (something you wouldn't want to use) is more than $1000.  Looks
like an order of magnitude to me.

>And they're completely obsolete.

So are Windows and MacOS.  They're still best sellers, nevertheless.
>
>By the way- do you know what "order of magnitude" means?  Ask one of the 
>scientists at CERN- they should know.

See above.  Apparently, I know what's an order of magnitude.  Does a
physicist count as a scientist?
>
>:  A 30 years old typewriter is still perfectly
>: usable.  Can you say the same about a 10 years old Mac?
>
>A 10 year old Mac would be a Plus. 

Are you sure?  10 years old means made in 1985.

>And I have a lot of clients who use 
>them every day for lots of tasks.  

They must be masochists.

>And a 30 year old typewriter probably 
>*isn't* usable, due to the lack of companies making replacement parts for 
>them.  

Tell this to the people using 50 years old typewriters.  If it ain't
broken, why fix it?  Not all countries are as rich as the USA or Western
Europe, to afford throwing away working equipment simply because it's
obsolete.

>It's hard enough even finding ribbons for most of the typewriters 
>in the world.

Not so difficult.  Until recently, all typewriters (except the high end
ones) used exactly the same ribbon.
>
>If it weren't for Apple (and the resot of them, you'd be seeing MS-DOS 5 
>instead of Windows 95.  Maybe.

I don't think so.  My PC is Microsoft free and I don't think that Apple
had _any_ contribution to the Linux project (some people even claim the
opposite :-)  As far as I'm concerned, the current MSDOS version could
be still 3.0, with or without Apple.  I couldn't care less.  

And nobody has seen Windows 95, as far as I know.  Only "demo", "beta"
and "preview" releases.  Not the real thing.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article <danpop.807802522@rscernix>, Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:

> >: And more typewriters are sold every day than Mac's.
> >
> >Not any more. 
> 
> Any hard data?

I don't believe that there are any major typewriter manufacturers still in
business.  I believe the last of them (Smith-Corona?) pulled out of that
business last month.

> >There's not that many companies even *making* them any 
> >more- they've all switched over to making printers for computers.  

> Care to provide the names of some of "all" those companies who have
> switched to printers for computers?

Care to provide the names of those companies still manufacturing typewriters?

> You forgot the home users (and I've seen _many_ homes with a typewriter
> _and_ a computer) and those who have to fill preprinted forms.

My parents have a typewriter.  It's been getting pretty dusty, considering
they haven't used it in about 4 years.
-- 
        Nevin ":-)" Liber       nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU    (520) 293-2799
                                                office: (520) 621-1815

In <nevin-0908950117490001@mac-nevin.cs.arizona.edu> nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]" Liber) writes:

>In article <danpop.807802522@rscernix>, Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
>> >: And more typewriters are sold every day than Mac's.
>> >
>> >Not any more. 
>> 
>> Any hard data?
>
>I don't believe that there are any major typewriter manufacturers still in
>business.  I believe the last of them (Smith-Corona?) pulled out of that
>business last month.

This is only your belief.
>
>> >There's not that many companies even *making* them any 
>> >more- they've all switched over to making printers for computers.  
>
>> Care to provide the names of some of "all" those companies who have
>> switched to printers for computers?
>
>Care to provide the names of those companies still manufacturing typewriters?

Off the top of my head: Olympia and Brother.  Probably there are many
others, but these are the only names I can remember without actually
going in some shops.  Last time I was at Interdiscount I saw a nice
Olympia Carina 2000 for about $80.  And I also saw a guy buying a
typewriter ribbon (but I never saw anybody buying a Mac :-)

>> You forgot the home users (and I've seen _many_ homes with a typewriter
>> _and_ a computer) and those who have to fill preprinted forms.
>
>My parents have a typewriter.  It's been getting pretty dusty, considering
>they haven't used it in about 4 years.

They filled all their forms by hand during the last 4 years :-)

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) wrote:
: In <nevin-0908950117490001@mac-nevin.cs.arizona.edu> nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]" Liber) writes:

: >In article <danpop.807802522@rscernix>, Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
: >
: >> >: And more typewriters are sold every day than Mac's.
: >> >
: >> >Not any more. 
: >> 
: >> Any hard data?
: >
: >I don't believe that there are any major typewriter manufacturers still in
: >business.  I believe the last of them (Smith-Corona?) pulled out of that
: >business last month.

: This is only your belief.

Smith-Corona just went Chapter 11, I've heard, due to a lack of customers 
for typewriters.

A client just tried to sell me an unused S-C for $50. I turned her down.

: >
: >> >There's not that many companies even *making* them any 
: >> >more- they've all switched over to making printers for computers.  
: >
: >> Care to provide the names of some of "all" those companies who have
: >> switched to printers for computers?
: >
: >Care to provide the names of those companies still manufacturing typewriters?

: Off the top of my head: Olympia and Brother.  Probably there are many
: others, but these are the only names I can remember without actually
: going in some shops.  Last time I was at Interdiscount I saw a nice
: Olympia Carina 2000 for about $80.  And I also saw a guy buying a
: typewriter ribbon (but I never saw anybody buying a Mac :-)

In the USA, there are very few typewriters sold any more. In fact, I'm 
not sure how many stores carry them.

If where you live is different than where I live, well, that makes the 
internet the internet, right?


--
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Lawson English                            __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
english@primenet.com                     /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
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In article <danpop.808016032@rscernix>, Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:

> > I believe the last of them (Smith-Corona?) pulled out of that
> > business last month.

> This is only your belief.

I went back and checked.  Smith-Corona filed on July 5th in U.S.
Bankruptcy Court in Delaware.  Source:  Binary Beat column, July 16th,
Chicago Tribune.

Go buy some stock in the typewriter companies.  I'm sure you'll believe
you'll make a fortune.
-- 
        Nevin ":-)" Liber       nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU    (520) 293-2799
                                                office: (520) 621-1815

In <nevin-1008951927550001@mac-nevin.cs.arizona.edu> nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]" Liber) writes:

>In article <danpop.808016032@rscernix>, Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
>> > I believe the last of them (Smith-Corona?) pulled out of that
>> > business last month.
>
>> This is only your belief.
>
>I went back and checked.  Smith-Corona filed on July 5th in U.S.
>Bankruptcy Court in Delaware.  Source:  Binary Beat column, July 16th,
>Chicago Tribune.

You missed the point (it isn't the first time :-)  I didn't doubt
that Smith-Corona went out of business, but the fact that it was "the
last of them".  Go back and check.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:

> You missed the point (it isn't the first time :-)  I didn't doubt
> that Smith-Corona went out of business, but the fact that it was "the
> last of them".  Go back and check.

He's right- there are a few typewriter manufacturers still in business. 
But right now, the biggest in the world is Brother, and they build more
computer printers than typewriters.  They don't make those old manual
machines any more.  The machines they *do* make are "word processors"
instead of plain old electric typewriters, and they're not something an
untrained user could manage any more.  

Smith-Corona was, however, the last of the large manufactureres that was
making manual typewriters.  There are a few manual typewriter companies in
some countries, but the number is dwindling every month.  

I went into Sears and Office Max yesterday and asked the salesmen about
computer versus typewriter sales, and between the two stores, they had
sold *two* typewriters in the last week.  Versus a couple of Macs a *day*
in each store.

I'm sure there will always be a market for manual typewriters, though. 
For example, I know a guy who still makes buggy whips...

-- 
cirby@magicnet.net
I gave up on the fantasy and am looking
for a really good reality...

Chad Irby (cirby@magicnet.net) wrote:
[snipt]
: I'm sure there will always be a market for manual typewriters, though. 
: For example, I know a guy who still makes buggy whips...

When I was stationed in the UK, I once got a ride to London from one of 
the two surviving roof masons. He had plenty of work doing repairs on old 
cathedrals and palaces, but he didn't think that he would find an 
apprentice.



--
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Lawson English                            __  __     ____  ___       ___ ____
english@primenet.com                     /__)/__) / / / / /_  /\  / /_    /
                                        /   / \  / / / / /__ /  \/ /___  /
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In <cirby-1108951854450001@pm1-28.magicnet.net> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:

>Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
>> You missed the point (it isn't the first time :-)  I didn't doubt
>> that Smith-Corona went out of business, but the fact that it was "the
>> last of them".  Go back and check.
>
>He's right- there are a few typewriter manufacturers still in business. 
>But right now, the biggest in the world is Brother, and they build more
>computer printers than typewriters.  They don't make those old manual
>machines any more.  The machines they *do* make are "word processors"
>instead of plain old electric typewriters, and they're not something an
>untrained user could manage any more.  

I wouldn't call a typewriter with an one-line buffer "word processor".
But maybe we use different definitions for that term.  And I did use
such a typewriter without any kind of training.  So do all the people
playing with the demo typewriters in the shops.

>Smith-Corona was, however, the last of the large manufactureres that was
>making manual typewriters.  There are a few manual typewriter companies in
>some countries, but the number is dwindling every month.  

A typewriter which is not manual is usually called "printer".  Again, we
seem to have terminology problems.
>
>I went into Sears and Office Max yesterday and asked the salesmen about
>computer versus typewriter sales, and between the two stores, they had
>sold *two* typewriters in the last week.  Versus a couple of Macs a *day*
>in each store.

Now, go to any third world country you like and make a similar study.
Or do you think that the US sales can be extrapolated everywhere?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) spewed forth the following profound insight:

==> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:

==> >Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
==> >
==> >> You missed the point (it isn't the first time :-)  I didn't doubt
==> >> that Smith-Corona went out of business, but the fact that it was "the
==> >> last of them".  Go back and check.
==> >
==> >He's right- there are a few typewriter manufacturers still in business. 
==> >But right now, the biggest in the world is Brother, and they build more
==> >computer printers than typewriters.  They don't make those old manual
==> >machines any more.  The machines they *do* make are "word processors"
==> >instead of plain old electric typewriters, and they're not something an
==> >untrained user could manage any more.  

==> I wouldn't call a typewriter with an one-line buffer "word processor".

    Where did he say anything about 'one-line buffers'?  My Evil friend
    Rob has a Brother Word-Processor, and you have a multiple-line screen.
    And you can save your work to 3.5".  I still consider it a typewriter,
    but it is nothing like the typewriters, even the electric typewriters,
    of yore.

==> >Smith-Corona was, however, the last of the large manufactureres that was
==> >making manual typewriters.  There are a few manual typewriter companies in
==> >some countries, but the number is dwindling every month.  

==> A typewriter which is not manual is usually called "printer".  Again, we
==> seem to have terminology problems.

    I think that by 'manual' he means 'non-electronic'.  'Manual' and 
'mechanical' are sometimes interchangeable in Standard American English.

==> >I went into Sears and Office Max yesterday and asked the salesmen about
==> >computer versus typewriter sales, and between the two stores, they had
==> >sold *two* typewriters in the last week.  Versus a couple of Macs a *day*
==> >in each store.

==> Now, go to any third world country you like and make a similar study.
==> Or do you think that the US sales can be extrapolated everywhere?

    Agreed!!!  Remember that the Internet is not just confined to the United
States, and that technology runs at a different pace outside of our borders.

    Just the same, I'm not so sure that sales of Typewriters versus Macs in 
third-world countries would really make a dent in the ratio of the overall 
sales of each.  If the # of Macs sold in the US beats the # of typewriters
sold in the US by enough orders of magnitude ('enough' is up to you to gripe
about, I'm tired), then it would take a *lot* of typewriters sold in a *lot*
of foreign countries to substantiate the claim that more typewriters are
sold than Macs overall.

						-Overall Caj

In article <40loud$o8t@mp.cs.niu.edu>, z911588@cs.niu.edu (Xcott Craver) wrote:

> Dan Pop (Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch) spewed forth the following profound insight:
> 
> ==> cirby@magicnet.net (Chad Irby) writes:
> 
> ==> >Dan.Pop@mail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) wrote:
> ==> >
> ==> >> You missed the point (it isn't the first time :-)  I didn't doubt
> ==> >> that Smith-Corona went out of business, but the fact that it was "the
> ==> >> last of them".  Go back and check.
> ==> >
> ==> >He's right- there are a few typewriter manufacturers still in business. 
> ==> >But right now, the biggest in the world is Brother, and they build more
> ==> >computer printers than typewriters.  They don't make those old manual
> ==> >machines any more.  The machines they *do* make are "word processors"
> ==> >instead of plain old electric typewriters, and they're not something an
> ==> >untrained user could manage any more.  
> 
> ==> I wouldn't call a typewriter with an one-line buffer "word processor".
> 
>     Where did he say anything about 'one-line buffers'?  My Evil friend
>     Rob has a Brother Word-Processor, and you have a multiple-line screen.
>     And you can save your work to 3.5".  I still consider it a typewriter,
>     but it is nothing like the typewriters, even the electric typewriters,
>     of yore.

I had a roomate a couple years back who had a brother word
processor/typewriter.  It had a 10 line or so screen.  I'm not sure how
big the buffer actually was.  In any case, it seemed to actually be
running WordPerfect DOS!  It would also save to double density floppies.

It got the job done, but I'd never recommend one to anybody.

                                         - Joel