🚀 go-pugleaf

Zhahai Stewart <zstewart@nyx.cs.du.edu> asks:
|
|   Please excuse me if this is too common a question; I did not find
|   any FAQ for this group (is there one?).

It's in the making.

|   How would a low budget novice best learn more about SGML?

The best solution I can think of is to borrow "The SGML Handbook" from
your nearest well-equipped library.  Oslo has two such libraries, so any
reasonably sized city should have at least one.

|   In a local technical bookstore there are 3 books (from memory, imperfect):

I would consider that a pretty well-equipped bookstore.  In other words,
I don't know of any other SGML books.  (Barring "SGML -- A user's guide
to ISO 8879", which is essentially obsoleted after The SGML Handbook.)

|   SGML Handbook/Goldfarb $95!! looks good

Warmly recommended.  You can't get a better book on SGML.  The tutorial
annexes (to the standard) are informative and readable, and should be a
user's first contact with SGML.  I have long wished we could have them
electronically, since they're very well written, and most every other
intro is redundant in comparison.  Also, the Overview is the best thing
that ever happened to an ISO standard.  All standards should have a
Goldfarb to comment on and organize its definitions.  This is SGML's
concepts and vocabulary, and any SGML novice will find this extremely
valuable to go through a couple times, and use as reference.  The only
problem with the Handbook is that the alphabetical list of definitions
doesn't point back to the annotation in the Overview.  You have to
consult the index for that.  You will find that the definitions and the
concepts behind them, make some really obscure passages in the standard
quite easy reading.  (All larger standards are like this, and it _does_
take some getting used to.)

|   Practical SGML ($45)

Recommended.  This book has a slight bias towards problems with SGML in
practice, but is also well suited for people with some programming
background.  The two-dimensional explanations of the syntax is valuable
and is consistently used throughout the book.  I wouldn't recommend it
for complete beginners, though.  SGML is a fairly advanced language, and
you have to have some idea of what syntax and computer languages are
about before you get the most out of this book.

|   SGML author's guide (or similar, white) $33

Not recommended.  It confuses several issues, and is very far from "an
author's guide".

|   Any reviews or pointers would be appreciated.  FTP documents or
|   software would also be great.  Thanks!

"Practical SGML" was reviewed in an issue of <TAG>, and you'll find it
in the archive under by.date/19910412045610.  I have "reviewed" The SGML
Handbook several times.

ftp.ifi.uio.no:/pub/SGML contains several parsers and other information.
Do take a look.  The comp.text.sgml archive is also worth looking into.

|   (Um, all I know is from an article in Byte this year, plus browsing
|   in the bookstore; sounds interesting given my interest in structured
|   text.)

Hope this helps.  Robin Cover's bibliography is a good source of further
information.  The complete, larger bibliography is referenced in the
on-line version, and can be obtained from Queens U, Toronto, Canada.

Best regards,
</Erik>
--
Erik Naggum             :  ISO  8879 SGML     :      +47 295 0313
                        :  ISO 10744 HyTime   :
<erik@naggum.no>        :  ISO 10646 UCS      :      Memento, terrigena.
<enag@ifi.uio.no>       :  ISO  9899 C        :      Memento, vita brevis.

In article <23367C@erik.naggum.no> Erik Naggum <SGML@ifi.uio.no> writes:
>|   Practical SGML ($45)
>
>Recommended.  This book has a slight bias towards problems with SGML in
>practice, but is also well suited for people with some programming
>background.  The two-dimensional explanations of the syntax is valuable
>and is consistently used throughout the book.  I wouldn't recommend it
>for complete beginners, though.  SGML is a fairly advanced language, and
>you have to have some idea of what syntax and computer languages are
>about before you get the most out of this book.
>
>|   SGML author's guide (or similar, white) $33
>
>Not recommended.  It confuses several issues, and is very far from "an
>author's guide".

Strange. I read "Practical SGML" after "an author's guide" and kept
thinking "Is he going to mention LINKs, SGML declaration, data tags etc."
(answer usually "no") and "this is explained rather confusingly". It did
offer some perspectives on CALS & EDI etc., and listed a few products
(probably out of date by now) but it is rather sketchy. It is unfair, but
having once had to deal with large amounts of Eric's Rexx code, I was
perhaps overly conscious of a lack of rigour in his book. I certainly
wouldn't recommend it as a first book, and it's probably unnecessary
altogether if one has read lots of <TAG>s (which I _still_ haven't got
hold of...)

Alasdair Grant <ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk> writes:
|
|   Strange. I read "Practical SGML" after "an author's guide" and kept
|   thinking "Is he going to mention LINKs, SGML declaration, data tags
|   etc."  (answer usually "no") and "this is explained rather
|   confusingly". It did offer some perspectives on CALS & EDI etc., and
|   listed a few products (probably out of date by now) but it is rather
|   sketchy. It is unfair, but having once had to deal with large
|   amounts of Eric's Rexx code, I was perhaps overly conscious of a
|   lack of rigour in his book. I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a
|   first book, and it's probably unnecessary altogether if one has read
|   lots of <TAG>s (which I _still_ haven't got hold of...)

Yes, it's sketchy.  It can tend to gloss over many things, and it
doesn't really take you into the "realm of SGML".  I think the title
says so, however.  "Practical SGML" doesn't suggest an elucidation of
each and every feature, nor does it suggest a thorough treatment of the
matter.  Overall and over time, I have come to appreciate the approach,
especially the tables.  As Deborah Lapeyre wrote in the summary to her
review in <TAG> #16, October 1990:

    This book is not a perfect book.  This is not the general SGML
    introduction that explains everything that all SGML users are still
    looking for.  This book is a very personal volume, sort of "Travels
    Through the Land of SGML Software and What I Found There".  You will
    want to read it for the same reason that you read any other travel
    volume: to acquire vicarious experience before trying out the real
    thing; to act as a guide to unfamiliar and uncharted territory; to
    compare another traveler's impressions with your own.  This book
    packs a lot of SGML application experience into one volume.

    Along the way, the author describes some fascinating SGML
    application, details some of the very real problems an SGML'er is
    likely to face, provides some useful pointers and DTD samples, and
    provides a good programmer-oriented introduction to SGML.


Still, I would recommend this over a book which includes everything, and
made my brain go "ALARM! OVERLOAD!" on page 30.  Which author cares
whether things are called "stago", "tagc", "mdo", etc?  It confused the
hell out of me, anyway.  Matter of fact, I found the "raw" standard
easier reading.  I didn't understand "entity" for a long time because I
got a bad start from reading "An Author's Guide -- NOT!" first.

Unfortunately, there are no other introductory books than the three
mentioned.  Of course, there's the comp.text.sgml archives.  The only
thing I'm sorry about is that I started archiving this thing so late.

Best regards,
</Erik>
--
Erik Naggum             :  ISO  8879 SGML     :      +47 295 0313
                        :  ISO 10744 HyTime   :
<erik@naggum.no>        :  ISO 10646 UCS      :      Memento, terrigena.
<enag@ifi.uio.no>       :  ISO  9899 C        :      Memento, vita brevis.