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8 messages
8 total messages Started by Bill Vogel Mon, 10 Aug 1992 05:30
apps that use news
#26
Author: Bill Vogel
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 05:30
36 lines
2135 bytes
There has been discussion in this group lately about applications
that use NeWS.  Our Sysmon (System Performance Monitor) product
makes extensive use of NeWS.

Enter soapbox mode...

People who bitch and moan about how slow NeWS is, ad nauseum... just
don't get the picture.  NeWS is plenty fast enough for ANY type of
presentation graphics, and most other types of things.  The only
thing I think it may have trouble with is highly computationally
bound graphics.  On the other hand,  there is a VAST gain to be had,
in the order of 10 to 1 in terms of application development time.
Tweaking graphics code (that would probably have had to be written
anyway if you want to support postscript printing) and simply
re-downloading the code (i.e. in the repaint proc) as opposed to the
recompiling and recompiling and recompiling and recompiling and then
relinking and relinking ... of an Xlib based program is well worth
any perceived speed penalties.  People that don't see this are simply
too lazy to bother to learn and understand how to program quickly
and efficiently in NeWS.  I'll accept a challenge from anybody who
thinks they can write an Xlib graphics program faster than I can
write a NeWS program.  I believe I'd be finished and well on my
way for a beer long before somebody writing Xlib code would even come
close to being finished.

End soapbox mode...

Now that we have tons of NeWS code written, can somebody enlighten
me as to the rumored demise of NeWS in favor of Display Postscript?

Display postscript has no provisions for anything useful like the canvas
extensions, events, etc..  The pointinpath and userpath stuff is hardly a
replacement for NeWS canvases and events.

-Bill Vogel   wrv@balr.com (708) 575-8200 
Re: apps that use news
#27
Author: Frank Peters
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 22:34
20 lines
1528 bytes
In article <1992Aug10.053002.16211@balr.com> wrv@balr.com (Bill Vogel) says:
: People who bitch and moan about how slow NeWS is, ad nauseum... just
: don't get the picture.

Most people aren't complaining about how slow NeWS is per se (some may
be but most aren't).  The problem is that Sun has a single server
(xnews) which provides both X11 and NeWS support.  That server is
considerably slower than the MIT pure X11 server on the same platform.
Since NeWS is commonly perceived as the "extra" (most people running
xnews are more interested in the X than the NeWS) it gets the blame for
the slowdown.  Through several layers of fuzzy this becomes "NeWS is
slow".

We could debate for ever the relative merits of NeWS and X and MGR and
what have you.  I think that its pretty obvious, though, that trying to
support more than one windowing system in the same server is going to
have a performance hit.
--
Frank Peters  -  UNIX Systems Programmer  -  Mississippi State University
Internet: fwp@CC.MsState.Edu  -  Phone: (601)325-7030  -  FAX: (601)325-8921
Re: apps that use news
#29
Author: Liam R. E. Quin
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 20:22
29 lines
1718 bytes
wrv@balr.com (Bill Vogel) says:
> People who bitch and moan about how slow NeWS is, ad nauseum... just
> don't get the picture.

fwp@CC.MsState.Edu (Frank Peters) writes:
> [...] The problem is that Sun has a single server
> (xnews) which provides both X11 and NeWS support.  That server is
> considerably slower than the MIT pure X11 server on the same platform.

I dispute that.  If you compare OpenWindows 3 with X11R4, you'll find that
there's little difference, but that OpenWindows 3 is generally faster - a
lot of benchmarks were posted when OW3 came out...
If you're comparing OpenWindows 3 and X11R5, you'll find that X11R5 is faster,
of course - it's newer.  Few, if any, commercial workstation vendors have
moved to X11R5 yet - and I know of several rather large companies that still
ship X11R3 for various reasons.

It is not at all clear to me that there is a large performance loss, as you
imply, from including the NeWS support in the OpenWindows xnews server.

Or the other way round, for that matter.

Lee

-- 
Liam Quin, lee@sq.com, SoftQuad, Toronto, 416 239-4801; the barefoot programmer
  lq-text (Unix text retrieval pacakge) mailing list: lq-text-request@sq.com
  latest released version: 1.10; ftp: ftp.cs.toronto.edu in directory: pub
  If Adultery is for Adults, is Juvenal for Juveniles?
Re: apps that use NeWS (HyperLook, SimCity)
#407
Author: Dug Scoular
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:05
63 lines
2831 bytes
Hi Netters,

In article <1992Aug10.053002.16211@balr.com> wrv@balr.com (Bill Vogel) writes:
>   There has been discussion in this group lately about applications
>   that use NeWS.  Our Sysmon (System Performance Monitor) product
>   makes extensive use of NeWS.
>
No one mentioned HyperLook or SimCity, they're good examples
of what can be done with NeWS. The great thing about the HyperLook
runtime is that you get a full featured PostScript Graphics Editor
thrown in "for nowght".

1. Where to FTP the HyperLook runtime from.
-------------------------------------------

The HyperLook look runtime system can be obtained via anonymous ftp
from the following sites (the turing.com site also provides product
and ordering information):

turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         graphics/NeWS/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z

2. Where to FTP SimCity from.
-----------------------------

Good news!  The HyperLook edition of SimCity for SPARC is now
available via anonymous ftp.

turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/SimCity.tar.Z
ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         vendor/dux/SimCity.tar.Z
src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/SimCity.tar.Z

>   Enter soapbox mode...
>
>   People who bitch and moan about how slow NeWS is, ad nauseum... just
>   don't get the picture.  NeWS is plenty fast enough for ANY type of
>   presentation graphics, and most other types of things.  The only
>   thing I think it may have trouble with is highly computationally
>   bound graphics.  On the other hand,  there is a VAST gain to be had,
	.... etc .... etc....
>
>   End soapbox mode...

Check out how fast SimCity graphics are, they use shared
memory canvases, the lava lamp that Don Hopkins put up for
ftp on turing.com (CAM.tar.Z methinks) is a pretty good demo too.

--

	Doug Scoular		"The big print giveth and the 
	Senior Rock n Roller	 small print taketh away"


	E-mail:	dug@turing.ac.uk		Tel: +44 41 552 6400
	Postal:	The Turing Institute Ltd.	Fax: +44 41 552 2985
		George House
		North Hanover Street
		Glasgow G1 2AD
		Scotland UK.

The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of The Turing
Institute Limited
Re: apps that use news
#409
Author: Ian Kemmish
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 13:21
40 lines
1979 bytes
lee@sq.sq.com (Liam R. E. Quin) writes:

>wrv@balr.com (Bill Vogel) says:
>> People who bitch and moan about how slow NeWS is, ad nauseum... just
>> don't get the picture.
>
>fwp@CC.MsState.Edu (Frank Peters) writes:
>> [...] The problem is that Sun has a single server
>> (xnews) which provides both X11 and NeWS support.  That server is
>> considerably slower than the MIT pure X11 server on the same platform.
>
> ......
>
>It is not at all clear to me that there is a large performance loss, as you
>imply, from including the NeWS support in the OpenWindows xnews server.
>
>Or the other way round, for that matter.
>
>Lee
>

Assuming you have enough workstation to go round.  I have three
window systems on my small IPC.  First, a minimalist homebrew
NeWS-only server that's pretty fast (but not as fast as 8 1/2, sigh).
Second X11r4, which is OK as long as you don't try to do stuff
in lots of different windows.  Thirdly, xnews, which is diabolical
if you want to do much more than scroll through a file:-(.

I hate X11 for the reason that it is a classic `gas-guzzling' piece
of software.  Because of this, I'm forced to hate xnews as well,
since it chews up even more resources on ever simpler tasks.  Why
should I have to buy more and more memory and disc just because
someone somewhere isn't as bothered about the performance that the
user sees as I am?

-- 
Ian D. Kemmish                    Tel. +44 767 601 361
18 Durham Close                   uad1077@dircon.co.uk
Biggleswade                       uknet!dircon!uad1077
Beds SG18 8HZ United Kingdom
Re: apps that use NeWS (HyperLook, SimCity)
#412
Author: thomas kendelbacher
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10:17
36 lines
1836 bytes
In article <DUG.92Aug14160508@morvern.turing.com>, dug@morvern.turing.com (Dug Scoular) writes:
|> Hi Netters,
|> 
|> [...]
|> 
|> 1. Where to FTP the HyperLook runtime from.
|> -------------------------------------------
|> 
|> The HyperLook look runtime system can be obtained via anonymous ftp
|> from the following sites (the turing.com site also provides product
|> and ordering information):
|> 
|> turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
|> ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         graphics/NeWS/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
|> src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
|> 
|> 2. Where to FTP SimCity from.
|> -----------------------------
|> 
|> Good news!  The HyperLook edition of SimCity for SPARC is now
|> available via anonymous ftp.
|> 
|> turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/SimCity.tar.Z
|> ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         vendor/dux/SimCity.tar.Z
|> src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/SimCity.tar.Z
|> 
|> [...]

Does anybody know how/where to get these without ftp access
(i.e. from mail servers)?

Greetings,
Thomas Kendelbacher  |  email : tkendel@ernohb.uucp
Robbenplate 13       |  voice : +49 421 539 5492
D-2800 Bremen 66     |     or : +49 421 57 04 37
Germany
ftp mail server (was "Re: apps that use NeWS (HyperLook, SimCity)")
#414
Author: Darci L. Chapman x5930
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:15
10 lines
900 bytes
There's a really nice ftp mail server at ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com

Send email to that address with the word "help" as the body
of the message.

I have used alot in the last two-three weeks to get some nice
sources from different places (via the ftp connect command) and
haven't had any problems with it.

>>-Darci->
Re: apps that use NeWS (HyperLook, SimCity)
#423
Author: Don Hopkins
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:16
39 lines
1962 bytes
token@ernohb.UUCP (thomas kendelbacher) writes:

   |> 1. Where to FTP the HyperLook runtime from.
   |> -------------------------------------------
   |> 
   |> The HyperLook look runtime system can be obtained via anonymous ftp
   |> from the following sites (the turing.com site also provides product
   |> and ordering information):
   |> 
   |> turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
   |> ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         graphics/NeWS/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
   |> src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/HyperLook1.5-runtime.tar.Z
   |> 
   |> 2. Where to FTP SimCity from.
   |> -----------------------------
   |> 
   |> Good news!  The HyperLook edition of SimCity for SPARC is now
   |> available via anonymous ftp.
   |> 
   |> turing.com (192.133.90.28)      pub/SimCity.tar.Z
   |> ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9)         vendor/dux/SimCity.tar.Z
   |> src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.1)  computing/vendor/turing.com/SimCity.tar.Z
   |> 
   |> [...]

   Does anybody know how/where to get these without ftp access
   (i.e. from mail servers)?

You can order SimCity (which includes the HyperLook runtime) from DUX Software.

    DUX Software
    4906 El Camino Real
    Suite 1
    Los Altos, CA 94022
    Phone #:  1-800-543-4999
	   or 1-415-967-1500
    FAX #:    1-415-967-5528

	-Don
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