🚀 go-pugleaf

WOW! You should give lectures. That was interesting and (for me)
educational. I'm sold on octave scale tuning if it solves the problems you
described (which I have encountered).

Now, to keep this from becoming a "me too" post (which it is), does anyone
know of a viable workaround for the Live! if there isn't a way in MIDI of
programming the EMU for octave scale tuning or if the EMU isn't programmable
in that manner?

Thanks Roland...
Eric

"Roland Fr�hlich" <Roland.Froehlich@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:3B5EA2C2.B6528460@t-online.de...
Dear NTX,
thanks for your interest in this topic.
Indeed 2500 years after Pythagoras the human ear & brain is still amuzed to
hear
a major chord in the perfect ratios 5:4 and 3:2. Nothing has changed in this
time in our brain.
If you hear a professional good live orchestra with strings and brass and
woodwinds, then this performance is totally normal and
style independant. This comes from every CD or from radio music as you can
hear every time a live performance is recorded, and a
good synth can also play in Pure Tuning.

But if you play the same piece with 32 or 64 voices on your soundcard, what
a sound disturbance!
Play a loud full string chord in the high frequency range , e.g.
Barber,Adagio, Bars 50 ff. What are you hearing?
Beats with very regular slow frequeny envelopes, artificial computerized
sound, nothing LIVE feeling.
This beating comes from the Equal Temperament on your soundcard, and you
have no chance to change this, or?

In an orchestra the only instruments playing in Equal Temperament are
Piano,Cembalo,Zither and similiars (percussive, so beats can
not develope to stationarity) and Organ (not percussive, but this is a own
very long thread through the milleniums- Kirnberger
etc.), but never Horns,Violons,Clarinets and all the many many others great
sounding instruments.

One can design intelligent algorithms (e.g. the patented Hermode Tuning) to
play almost everytime in Pure Tuning as every
professional performer it does automaticly after trained for ensemble
playing, but your soundcard today can this not perform?
Ridiculous and annoying!
I think the computer and his peripherals (say soundcards) has the capability
and the right to do things what humans request from
him.
The MMA (Midi Manufacturer Assoc.) has defined for this purpose the
Real-Time-Sysex Command "Octave Scale Tuning" in the year 1999.
It has the mostly compact as possible form for doing exactly this job, never
comparable with the restricted features of Pitchbend
(too many transfer, too less channels and instruments for a full polyphony
orchestra).
But the developers of Hi-End soundcards (as Creative claims) seems not to be
aware of a so long outstanding feature.

Can it be that a SB manager read this thread and trigger as soon as possible
a skilled programmer ?
I have solved this for me (in a programmable DSP based MIDI expander - not a
PC-soundcard)  in exactly one half labor day and it
works fine.
Maybe the Soundblasters with the EMU 10K chip are not programmable?
But I guess the tuning is generated in the drivers VXD, and so it could be
soon and easely an update possible.

And if this posting is read by a responsible Creative product manager:
Imagine the fantastic market advantage for the ten-thousands of music
schools wordlwide, if you can support
an TRUE orchestral accompaniment for the student player, also suitable for
the home exercises.
As if I can see, no competitor has this feature until now integrated.
It gives other solutions (Yamaha,Roland), but they are vendor specific - not
soundcard independant- at not so compact and
time/coding efficient as the MMA official methods.

The good thing with Creative products today is their open platform to
building new instruments via Soundfonts, this is a very wise
and nice feature, let it stay for the present and future of creativity by
Creatives/EMU mens.
I switched from the great but not more supported Pinnacle Studio card to SB,
in the hope, that things are evolved now,
but this seems not to be the case in the year 2001, perhaps 2002 ?

But the question leaves:
Where is the site for COMPLETE and DETAILED exhaustiv Sysex Spec for all
Creative products ?
E.g. Master Tuning, Master Volume, Tuning tables etc. etc.
Is this not implemented in no one product?
I have only found selected NRPNs and the Chorus/Reverb program selection,
but never the full sysex roadmap.

As a member of MMA CreativeLabs has the duty to document ALL the implemented
Sysex specs,
this would be nothing more then fair against all the programmers worldwide
using their products.
This information seems missing in all their official known websites.

Best regards,
Roland.


NTX schrieb:

> Roland,
>
> I think the APS drivers predate the MIDI spec that you are referring to.
> (Too bad)  I have heard of people adjusting soundfonts to acheive scales
> outside of equal temperment (most time consuming and not flexible) and the
> other suggestion has been to use pitch bends (pain in the...)
>
> I am not sure that there is an easy fix for what you are looking for.  To
my
> knowledge it is rare for even soft synths to have such a feature ( I think
> VaZ Modular has a 'scale tuning' function but other than that I don't know
> of any.)   I am not that familiar with some of the newer software samplers
> (Gigasampler and Unity) but I would hope that they may be more capable in
> this area.
>
> I am most curious how you intend to apply Octave Scale Tuning and what
style
> (or tradition) of music you are working with.
>
> NTX
>
> "Roland Fr�hlich" <Roland.Froehlich@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:3B5D0E81.7D4025B0@t-online.de...
> > Eric,
> > thank for your answer. But Pitchbend or NRPNs are not applicable for my
> > applications.
> > There are to less channels or to many bytes.
> > Because this the MMA has introduced the "Sysex Real-Time Octave Scale
> Tuning"
> > message
> > in the year 1999.
> >
> > Eric Vela schrieb:
> >
> > > Just a thought... Are you talking about MIDI pitch bend/wheel
> controller? If
> > > so, that's not a sysex. You can set the amount the wheel controller
will
> > > bend the pitch with MIDI RPN 0. (I never remember the math correctly
so
> I
> > > always have to keep guessing at formulas to set it. I believe it has a
> > > maximum range of +/- 2 octaves but don't quote me on it. I do know it
is
> an
> > > instant change in pitch without any portamento -- meaning unlike the
> fast
> > > but audible gliss effect you get with Microsoft's software synth in
> Windows
> > > 2000.)
> > >
> > > As for NPRNs or sysex, I'm sorry I can't say. There may be NPRNs, but
I
> have
> > > not been able to find any sysex. I tend to use transpose features for
> > > one-time coarse tuning (I know it's different than modifying the
> instrument
> > > settings) and wide pitch wheel ranges to circumvent phrasing issues
with
> > > certain instruments.
> > >
> > > Good luck
> > > Eric.
> > > "Roland Fr�hlich" <Roland.Froehlich@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > > news:3B5BF9B0.D83A55EC@t-online.de...
> > > Where is the official place to obtain from EMU/Creative the COMPLETE
> > > Sysex implementation chart ?
> > > I have nothing found in the Web.
> > > If you are working with Yamaha products, there a tons of detailed
> > > information,
> > > but what happens with Creative Labs?
> > >
> > > Especially interested in : Real-Time Octave Scale Tuning.
> > > Is this implemented today in any activ product? (official MIDI spec is
> > > from 1999!).
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Roland.
> >