🚀 go-pugleaf

James Keast wrote:
 
> To you, we may be whineing - however, to many of us there remain
> many important issues that remain to reolved.  We don't intend to sit
> by and let them be decided - without providing our input, further, we're
> not going to wait to be asked for our input.

Fine. Power to the pipples.

>         Most of which is caused by self taught hackers who _think_
> they everything.


Exactly how much professional experience is this assumption based on? Being 
self-taught certainly does not imply sainthood, as I've seen sloppy code from 
both degreed and degreeless programmers. I wasn't referring to hackers either, 
per se. Once upon a time, the term 'hacker' was a term of endearment describing 
a cyber-explorer who pushed the envelope of widely percieved limits of computer 
technology. Now the term conjures an undisciplined prepubescent propellerhead. 
(Interestingly, 'propellerhead' used to be a term of endearment too. Ever seen a 
beanie?) 
 
>         There is a slight problem here - not everyone wants to
> to do go rushing of into a commerical programming environment - most people
> I have talked to really don't _want_ to be a programer.  Our degree does
> not prepare us to merely code - if all you want to learn is C - go
> to one of those IT schools and pick it up in 3 weeks -

Three weeks? You're a really funny guy.

>         Coming out of my degree - epsecially with my COOP expereince,
> I have the skills, education, and work experience to enter the workforce
> as a software desinger/developer (Soft. Engineer _if_ you must).  This
> kind of job is quite different from simply coding - much more interesting.

So you think a 'software desinger(sic)' or 'software engineer' is somehow 
different from a 'programmer' or 'coder'? This idea doesn't correlate to 
real-world either. Companies use different titles that mean the same thing in 
our industry. I've seen titles that would make your head spin. I used to call 
myself a 'Software Engineer', but after a few 'Oh puulllease, what in the heck 
is that supposed to mean?', I realized that title isn't important --  it's what 
you can and actually do that is important. For example, one of my current titles 
is 'Senior Technical Consultant'. What do you think _that_ means? To see that 
title on a business card, it might surprise you to learn that a) I'm on the 
regular payroll, and I do not service contract clients of this company, b) I 
design extremely large distributed multiplatform realtime database 
applications, among other applications, c) I interview potential team members 
as candidates to implement my designs, and d) I write the hard stuff 
myself (VxDs, OLE automation servers & controls, ...). SO -- I don't know where 
your elitism is based, but if you're writing code you're a coder. You can call 
yourself Lord of the Universe if you want, but if it quacks like a duck..

>         I therefore take great offence to your suggestion that universities
> do a deplorable job preparing us.  I suggest that you ought not speak
> of things you apparently know nothing about.  I do not have the stats
> for TUNS (somebody from there care to enlighten this guy??) but I can
> tell you that Dalhousie Comuting Science students finishing with
> the advance major or honours degree (with or withotu coop) have no
> difficulty in finding a job (possibly not in NS - but then there are
> few jobs here anyway).  Very often they go on to do well in Graduate
> School (and they do very well in acquiring NSERC and other funding,
> this year 4 of the 13 NSCER grants awared to Dal grads were in CS).
>         Therefore _someone_ thinks were prepared.

This diatribe helps prove my point. Is graduate school and/or research funding 
the goal? I'm thinking of a programmer I fired about five years ago -- he 
decided that industry was too hard so he packed up his Phd and trucked off to 
teach at UCLA - and they can have him. He's a fine theorist I guess, but he 
can't write a line of useful code. One of my current employees graduated from 
the University of Texas last year. During the interview I noticed that some of 
her answers were technically outdated, so I asked her about how she would feel 
about working in this industry if she found out that her degree hadn't prepared 
her for the real world. She started to answer quickly, then stopped herself. It 
was apparent that she hadn't considered this, so she seemed to forget for a 
moment that she was in an interview and just sat for a moment ruminating about 
the uncomfortable possibility. Finally, she returned to the here'n'now and 
replied that such an epiphany would be VERY scary, but that she was sure that 
SOMETHING she learned in school would be applicable. I agreed. I liked here 
honesty and flexibility in dealing with a new concept with grace and clarity, 
and hired her on the spot. While she is among the most junior of the developers 
on any team I'm involved with, she is also among the best. She doesn't sit on 
her sheepskin -- she devours the technology and the techniques of the real 
world. Reword: While she panicked for a moment when I said essentially the same 
thing to her that I wrote here, she bounced back and went for the gusto. Your 
response is more on the order of 'Does so!', and I'm not going to play 'Does 
not!' with you on a subject that deals with tendencies, not rigid rules. It's 
true that someone thinks you're prepared. I don't happen to think that you 
necessarily are just because you spent time in academia.

> This is simply garbage.  Much of what we learn is directly applicable
> to the work place - the parts which are not directly applicable provide
> academic background which is essential.   Universities, afterall
> sever a greater purpose than to be simple job training institutions.
> Unfortunately, your misconception is shared by many of your fellow
> "self-taught" coders.  You think that since you taught yourself to code
> you know everything worthwhile that can be learned in a CS degree-
> I doubt it.

Whatever. Your argument sounds a lot like the old joke about 'the blind leading 
the stupid'. The leader doesn't want to admit that he has no idea where he's 
going, and the follower doesn't realize that he's being dragged around the 
countryside.
 
> If your not concerned, then go away - don't tell us we're whining,
> preaching or whatever - I for one couldn't care less what you think.

My reference to 'preachy' was obviously directed at myself. I was acknowledging 
that my note sounded preachy. I'm amazed that you found another interpretation.

-- 

- Brian Ebarb