🚀 go-pugleaf

ableamison@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> In article <38EB37A8.FFB1982@clark.net>,
>   klaatu@clark.net wrote:
> > ableamison@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <38E9DD0D.361F4681@clark.net>,
> > > klaatu@clark.net wrote:
> > > > ableamison@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In article <925G4.1982$Oc2.121907@monger.newsread.com>,
> > > > > russotto@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote:
> > > > > > In article <8cae1b$6it$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> <ableamison@my-deja.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > }
> > > > > > }Such as the answer to my question -- are the upper branches
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > }Anacostia River in the Anacostia watershed or not? Geez, when
> I
> > > put
> > > > > it
> > > > > > }that way, it answers itself. No talk of soil conditions
> required
> > > > > here.
> > > > > > }Yes or no?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A branch of a river is by definition within its watershed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you!
> > > > >
> > > > > So any development within the watershed would change the
> capacity of
> > > the
> > > > > soil underneath it to absorb or slow rainwater.
> > > >
> > > > No. It's already impermeable to within about 99.2 percent of
> concrete.
> > > The
> > > > remaining .06 percent could be vastly improved-upon with
> stormwater
> > > > catchments.
> > > >
> > > > > Any discussion of
> > > > > the current state of soil there is irrelevant unless it takes
> that
> > > > > into account. That's all I wanted to say.
> > > >
> > > > If the soil is already as impermeable as concrete,replacing it
> with
> > > concrete
> > > > will have no net effect on runoff volumes or speeds of downhill
> flow
> > > and
> > > > flood channel impact.
> > > >
> > > > Soil conditions are _extremely_ germane to any argument.
> > > >
> > > > If the soil in question was a wetland atop an aquifer recharge
> zone, I
> > > would
> > > > be behind you all of the way and your arguments might have merit.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Any more silly questions?
> > > > >
> > > > > If you were paying attention, you'd have noticed that the silly
> > > question
> > > > > was in response to a previous silly answer.
> > > >
> > > > Two sillies don't make an intelligent. You're wasting our time and
> > > yours
> > > > with misapplied sophistries.
> > > >
> > > > If you have a point, make it, if it's debatable we'll debate it on
> its
> > > > merits. If it hasn't any merits, because it's _silly_ expect to
> get
> > > called
> > > > on it. If having a silly argument called "silly" bothers you,
> think
> > > your
> > > > proposal through and nobody will call it "silly". they may
> continue to
> > > > object, but at least it won't be for reasons that make people
> laugh.
> > >
> > > Please see my response to Mr. Russotto's answer to my message.
> > >
> > > I simply do not believe that the area in question is 99.2 percent
> the
> > > impermeability of concrete all the way to the surface, or at least
> that
> > > this translates to 99.2 percent of the flow rate of concrete. Show
> me a
> > > system-wide flow rate that accounts for all flow from the surface
> down
> > > please.
> >
> > I don't suppose you're sufficiently familiar with the formats so as to
> > knowledgeably request in which format I should provide this to you?
> >
> > Again, my advice is that you actually travel to the area in question
> and
> > _look_. Take a pointed stick and mark off gradations up to one foot
> and
> > record the diameter of the stick. Take a gradated measuring-cup of
> water.
> > Poke a hole in the ground on a nice dry day and pour the glass of
> water into
> > the hole. Measure how much water you put in there, and how long it
> stands.
> > Look at the side of the stick and see what sort of soils stick to it
> to what
> > depths.
> >
> > Repeat in about a dozen locations in the area in question.
> 
> You're the one making the assertion -- you do the research.

Actually, I am _not_ the one making the assertion. It is you who says that
building the ICC will massively impact the far Northwest Branch watersheds,
in particular with regard to floods and silting. Yours was the first
assertion, and you have yet to provide a shred of credible proof that this
is so. _You_ do that damned research proving your assertion. And while
you're at it, why don't you tell us exactly when, if ever, you've ever set
foot anywhere _near_ the terrains in question.

So you can at least pretend you have, here's a nice topo of the area.

http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/sure.adol?c=-77.042784,39.105764&p=2&m=0&cd=o&g=-77.03666700,38.89500000&a=Northwest+Branch+Anacostia+Norwood%2c+Maryland&r=y

That's just so you can see where I'm getting my maps so that you won't start
off on a tangent about "who faked that for you" or some such nonsense.

While you are at it, why not saturate my bandwidth and see
http://earthops.org/NW-Branch/far-nwb.gif

Start at the bottom of the picture, in very heavily urbanized Wheaton
Maryland. Now travel northwards past Wheaton Regional Park, past Randolph
Road and the gaging station. See Bel Pre Creek leading off to the northwest?
Bel Pre Creek runs up past Bel Pre Road, through 30-year-old suburbia, right
into the back of Leisure World, a very rapidly-expanding gated retirement
community. There has been very substantial construction going on there
nonstop for about 15 years. At present the construction is pretty heavy.
Lots and lots of big buildings going up, you know. Don't believe me? Why not
go take a look? Lots of concrete _already_ there. 

> 
> But at least you acknowledge that flow rates are the measure needed,
> which implies that you did not support your argument earlier, which
> makes your blaming me for not understanding it invalid.

You know what? This is all so very much total bull-puckey and is in fact an
immense smoke screen to the real issue.

Well... since I typed in the text at the top of the message, I decided to go
do some fieldwork.

I put on my army green t-shirt and my battered camo patrol cap, got into my
little red Nissan station-wagon, and toured the area in question. I think I
managed to go actually take a look at most of the watershed in question. 

Now, you seem to be of the opinion that there will be some vast expanse of
concrete laid into place in the pristine and virgin forests of east Olney.
Let me tell you -- it's not going to happen.

Let's start with the area which would be directly impacted by the
construction of the InterCounty Connector, roughly from the intersection of
Layhill Road and Norwood Road, to appoximately one-half mile north on Route
97 (Georgia Avenue extended) of the intersection of Route 97 and Norbeck
Road.

Now, let's start at Norwood and Layhill. Hell, let's drive a little east of
there, to the new, and huge, James Hubert High School. What, it's not on
your map? Maybe that's because it's so damned new the paint's hardly dry and
they're adding on even more. And it's got this _immense_ chunk of parklands
attached, which run right down to the NW Branch and right across from that
is the _equally immense_ chunk of parklands which is the County Public Golf
Course. Okay, so let's go back up the Norwood and Layhill. "X" marks the
spot on your map. 

Nice little hilltop, one heck of a view... mostly of lots of houses. Okay,
not all that many... only 50 or so but they're there. They're very nice, if
they cost much less than a million each I'm surprised. This is just back of
the South corner of the intersection. And cruise around and you can see
they're prepositioned to build about another fifty. So, let's look at the
North corner, my goodness, it seems that's the MNCPPC Park Police Aviation
center, Woodlawn. I just can't imaging them building a lot of low-rent
apartments with lots of parking spaces and no flood abatement right there!
Well, let's look at the East Corner of the intersection. Well, if you drive
down Ednor Road a little bit, there's a little road that turns right, says
"no outlet" but if you drive back in there, whaddaya know. Even more very
expensive houses, only in nice wooded 2-acre lots. Well, let's look at the
West corner. 

Well, the West corner of that intersection has one ramshackle old country
store that's been there since about the Civil War, and behind it is a lot of
wide open spaces which happens to have one huge honking pile of dirt smack
in the middle of it. Topsoil or maybe a soil-manure mix. And right beyond it
on the other side of the NW Branch watershed there, atop that big deforested
ridge? My goodness gracious, it appears to be a lot more nice big
million-dollar homes. My my. But you can't get there from here.

Well, let's just mosey on down towards Olney. First, on the right, we pass
Woodlawn, and then -- why, there's the huge and sprawling campus of the
Sandy Spring Friends School! I betcha they don't put up a lot of low-rent
apartments with adjacent strip malls right there! No sirree! and right back
across Norwood Road from the SSFS, there's a nice little road leading back
into the lovely green hills hidden behind the little strip of woods, and
there one finds... you guessed it! A lot more luxury homes on acres and
acres of land! why these folks even have horses! And some of those houses
appear to be brand smackin' new! And heck, it would appear that some of them
are probably closer to a million-and-a-half in value! And they're building
even more of them, looks like! Why I do declare. Mmh, mmh, mmh.

Well, let's explore a few more of those streets labelled "no outlet" which
lead into the interior of the rough-square bounded by Route 28, Layhill Road
between Route 28 (Norbeck Road), Norwood/Dr Bird Road, Batchellor's Forest
Drive, and Route 97 and back to Route 28. Just because they're labelled "no
outlet" doesn't mean that there's nothing back there.

Why I once again do declare! Down every "no outlet" street I can find that's
not labelled "private drive" there are acres and acres and acres of mostly
deforested land, and on about every two to five acres, one finds a house
which would not be out of place in Potomac Maryland, or in the parkside area
of Woodley Park DC between Calvert and Massachusetts Avenues NW just east of
Rock Creek. Woo hoo! Them's some big houses, Jack! Nice Mercedes in the
drive there. Hell, was that a teenager driving a Rolls? Damn sure was! I
think I'm onto something, boys.

Let's just mosey on down to Batchellor's Forest Road, hang a left off of Dr
Bird Road, and keep on driving. Hmmm, nice houses. Lots of private drives.
Well paved ones. My my. And let's just drive down to right smack in the
middle of Batchellor's Forest Road, why my goodness that's a damned big
house. And there's another, and another and another. Hell, there's _lots_ of
them.

Take a look at this little topo map here...

http://mapserver2.esri.com/cgi-bin/sure.adol?r=y&f=c&c=-77.051582,39.113865&p=1&m=0&cd=p&g=-77.03666700,38.89500000&a=Norbeck+Road+East+of+Georgia%2c+Centerscreen&MAP.x=301&MAP.y=4

Hey! This shows a lot of houses on the south side of Norbeck, but where are
the dozens and dozens of palatial estates I found wandering around on those
streets marked "no outlet"? Funny, you'd never know those houses were there
driving along on Norbeck, but damned if there aren't one whole hell of a lot
of very rich people living Real Close to the proposed InterCounty Connector!
Who'd a thunk it? I guess this must be an old map, because it doesn't show a
single one of those houses -- and yes indeedy, those houses sure did look
just about brand new. So did the streets, for that matter.

With the exception of the big ol' horse farm and the adjacent private
golf-course, that whole big chunk of land in that square -- the watershed
for Batchellor's Run, the main watershed for the Northwest Branch of the
Anacostia River in the general area of Olney/Norbeck -- appears to be just
about completely developed with a lot of very wealthy people living in a lot
of very nice houses that nobody seems to know are there. Why, I don't
suppose that someone could make a huge amount of money off of the land where
the InterCounty Connector would run? You don't suppose that all of those
rich rich rich folks living in their splendid isolation would want a
six-lane highway carrying disgusting plebians and god-forbid truckers right
through their community? I don't reckon they would. I damn sure don't reckon
that they would _ever_ sell off any of their land for strip malls, for
"affordable housing" <shudder>! Why, it is as clear as the day that they've
got exactly enough roads for them and for them only, and the rest of the
State of Maryland can just go hang, the perishing low-rent bastards, damn
them if we'll let the rest of the State benefit from a road through _our_
back yards!

Yeah. I went out and looked. I strongly suggest that everyone remotely local
go take a look too.

This business about "immense concrete expanses ruining the precious
Northwest Branch of the Anacostia is a bunch of misleading hooey, and it is
about one thing and one thing only, seen in the context of a State and
County where there are some of the finest roads and finest civil engineers
and some of the most restrictive environmental laws and codes in the
country.

This is _entirely_ about rich-ass bastards who are absolutely will (and
financially able) to throttle the rest of the State of Maryland and in fact
by derivation the Greater Washington Metropolitan Area... simply because
they don't want their precious tranquillity shattered by a road that the
area has desperately needed for 30 years. 

Any argument not directly addressing _that_ is primarily bullshit and a red
herring.


<snips>
> 
> Just tell me where you got the 99.2% number. A quick citation will be
> fine.

Smokescreen, bullshit, red-herring.

NIMBY Rich-boy shill.


Remainder snipped, since it's misdirection, and a troll off of the real
issue here... wealthy elitists perfectly willing to choke the rest of the
State's east-west heavy traffic needs, and clearly with enough money to keep
Governor Parris Glendenning in their hip-pocket.

It's awfully odd, isn't it. The sites that every other ecology/watershed
site points to, which has the soil permeability figures, is suddenly
offline. The other sites still point to it... I guess when you have enough
money, you can do anything. I bet one could even, if they had enough money,
get the Governor to permanently shitcan the idea of a freeway through the
backyard of rich people, and then sell the reserved/purchased lands back to
the developers at just the right cost for them to make an unholy bundle of
cash, with a healthy chunk of that going to the future Governor of Maryland,
the Kathleen Kennedy (Townsend).

I don't care if the soil around the NW Branch Anacostia headwaters is so
goddamned absorbent that it sucks enough to make the damned river run uphill
and backwards. This is all this blockade of the ICC is about, all it's ever
been about, but never so much more so than now... it's the rich looking out
for the rich, and to hell with everyone else.

Go look for yourself, it's apparent as the nose on your face.

-- 
                    "We look through a glass but darkly:
                 What we see is more colored by our beliefs, 
               than what we believe is colored by what we see."
Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth:   Meow.    http://www.clark.net/pub/klaatu/