🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1oars8INNf2u@sol.tis.com> mjr@tis.com (Marcus J Ranum) writes:
>	Actually, I wrote that.

Oops.  Obviously, I've had an insufficient amount of caffeine today...

>>By the way, did you know that you live in one of several cities where
>>courts have ruled that the police have NO responsibility to protect
>>individual citizens?
>
>	Great, huh? Makes me feel pretty darned good. Now do you see
>why I am not particularly happy that we have loads of folks running
>around with guns?  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I should "protect myself" by
>breaking the law and carrying a concealed gun so that I can swap
>bullets on the street corner if I need to.

Who's talking about everybody "running around with guns".  I don't think
that everybody should be able to carry a concealed weapon.  However, I
think that anyone without a history of violent felonies or psychotic
commitment has the right to keep a gun in his/her home.

What I think we need is a reasonable carrying permit system, with the permit
good nationwide.  With the prerequisite being some training and a background
check.  I believe that the number of people who have abused their carry
permits under the current system is close to zero.  Certainly lower than
the number of cops who have abused their privilege of carrying.

>>Believe what you want but don't think you can shove your beliefs down my 
>>throat.
>
>	That's part of democracy, chum. The tyranny of the many. If
>you want to enjoy the advantages of a democratic society, you have
>to accept the fact that if a majority can re-write the laws so you
>don't like them, you're stuck. The flip side is that you have the
>ability to attempt to re-write laws yourself. NRA has been very
>successful at this.

First off, this is a republic with democratic forms, not strictly speaking
a democracy.  The "republic" caveat means that to alter the guarantees of
the Bill of Rights, you need to change the Constitution, not simply take
a vote.

Secondly, be very, very careful what you propose where legislation is
concerned.  If a ban on gun ownership was enacted, what would the effects
be?  One effect would be to turn a LOT of people like me, who are not a
threat to society and likely never will be, into criminals.  Is that a
reasonable thing, a wise thing?  Especially considering that doing so
would not, IMO, serve society as a whole.

Just because something is illegal, doesn't make it immoral...abortion
was a felony once, possession of some relatively innocuous drugs is a
serious crime now.  Alcohol was prohibited early in this century:  the
law was unsuccessful in stopping the use of liquor, violence increased
as the black market began to yield immense profits, previously law-
abiding citizens became criminals by definition and people (perhaps then,
perhaps earlier) came to see the law as something to be circumvented,
not a wise set of rules to live by.

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

>>>Except, of course, when they're being assaulted
>>>by another fun-and-freedom loving gun owner...
>>
>>Childish innuendo like this does nothing to facilitate intelligent
>>discussion.
>
>	That wasn't childish innuendo. That was a fact. I am not
>particularly worried about knife-wielding attackers. I am worried
>about gun-wielding attackers. I don't care where the guns came from,
>I just have an aversion to looking down that little round black hole.
>I've done it twice (an M16 on full auto with a round up the spout and
>the safety off, and an Uzi semiautomatic, the details of which I
>am not familiar. It may have been unloaded)

You made an insulting generalization that wasn't any more valid than,
say, prejudice against blacks.

You're not particularly worried about knives?  Well, guns won't make 
you any more dead than a knife will.  Maybe you are adept enough to
deal with a knife-wielding attacker...I have had 6 years of Karate
and _I_ would not presume to think that of myself.  Even if it was
true, what of your wife, sister, father mother...are they also
adept enough at self defense to defeat a guy with a knife?

I may have mentioned that a neighbor once saved her husband from two
burglars who were kicking him by shooting at them.  It so happens
that they were an elderly couple...and, in that case, a gun was the
only weapon that would have run the criminals off.  As it was, her
husband suffered internal injuries from the beating.  he probably
would have died, if she hadn't had that gun.

    don