🚀 go-pugleaf

Hello Malcolm

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to respond so quickly to my posting.
Especially considering that you have been a bit busy recently ;-)

We may have to differ on some points, but thank you for listening and
putting the Demon side, even if unofficially.

I am the managing director of a publishing company, who's main activity is
in publishing a monthly magazine aimed at the radio industry. If I may, I
shall make a few comparisons between my company and Demon as we go through
the various points. Apologies to all if this bores.


<821103745.19952@thokk.demon.co.uk> 
      malcolm@demon.net (Malcolm Muir) said:-


>> >Demon sell internet conenctivity. They did not (until recently with
>> >Turnpike) sell *any* software. None at all for any platform.
>
>> Point taken, but if they are backing and selling PC software, what's wrong
>> with doing the same for other popular computers?
>
>Nothing at all, provided there is a reliable supported commercial
>product to sell and we have the capability to support the product.
>Turnpike software is our first venture into selling such a service,
>more may follow.

That sounds promising, and I hope Atari software will be included.


>> >What was purchased was an account to permit connection to the
>> >internet. How that connection is established is entirely down to the
>> >account holder and Demon have no knowledge nor wish to be involved
>> >in the decision of what machine and software is being used.

When I opened my account I was under the impression that Demon did supply
the software to enable connection to their service. This is now obviously
incorrect, but I wasn't told this when I gave my details to the Demon sales
person. Maybe some clarification is needed here?

   
>> By not recommending and supporting software, Demon are potentially allowing
>> people to disrupt their services by using inappropriate software.
>
>No - our services are configured such that it should not be possible
>to disrupt them in this way. We want users to be able to connect
>anything they wish to the service, at least within the bounds of the
>service they purchase.

I am pleased to hear that if I make mess, and can't clear it up, at least I
won't cause problems for anyone connecting after me. I always try to be
considerate ;-) 
 
>> >That the account that was sold works can not be disputed. There are
>> >50,000 successful account holders a vast number of which sucessfully
>> >connect daily. There are over 1,000 connections established to Demon
>> >at any time of day or night. No one can dispute that Demon accounts
>> >work and permit connection to the Internet (Quality of the sevice once
>> >connected is a different issue).
>
>> I estimate that 1 in 3 of my calls to my local PoP fail to connect with
>> anything of Demon's (and that's using both the original NOS and Oasis.)
>
>Why is this not the experience of all our customers then ? Most of our
>customers are able to connect at what would be considered the norm for
>modem connections in the UK. Other do have problems, but these are
>ususally eventually traced to configuration or poor line problems.

I did not imply that the account doesn't work, I just said it doesn't work
all the time. My major problem is in connecting locally. When it connects
properly, I have only a few minor problems, which could be software or poor
line related. As for the norm of modem connections. How come that 996f my
fax and BBS connections work fine at the first attempt. About 336f my
Demon ones fail to get past the first hurdle. My configuration is correct,
it must be, if the other 676f connections get through. But perhaps the
configuration needs updating to cope with new equipment? I have seen
mentions of finch servers and the like. Maybe the problem lies here?   


>> >That Mr. Harrop was unable to get the computer he chose to use and the
>> >software he chose to install on it to connect to the service is I
>> >regret to say his problem. Demon did enact their part of the contract
>> >bu setting up an account for him to use. That account was available to
>> >him and the terms of business require that he pay the set up charge
>> >and a minimum of one month connect charges.
>
>
>> Demon supply Atari software for use in connecting to their system, thereby
>> implying that they are aware that there are Atari users out there. They
>> should state clearly if their system has difficulty coping with Ataris
>> before opening an account.
>
>NO NO NO - Demon do not *SUPPLY* any Atari software. Demon allow users
>access to Atari Shareware and PD software. We help users obtain it,
>but it is not on the basis of supply. No money or contract exists
>between Demon and our customers for the supply of Atari software. The
>closest that we come is supplying *disks* on which we copy 3rd. party
>software for the convenience of customers.
>
>As regards difficulty in connecting from Atari's we are aware of many
>Atari users that sucessfully connect to the service. This is proof
>that connection to our service is possible from a correctly configured
>Atari. There is even a newsgroup where Atari users exchange
>information, this is proof in itself that connection from an Atari is
>viable.

When I told the Demon sales person I had an Atari, and asked if that would
be a problem, he said no it wouldn't, and if I didn't have suitable
software, I could download it from Demon's BBS. He then gave me the number,
plus he recommended that I download it and play with it for a few days to
get the hang of it, whilst the account was being set up. At no time did he
say that this software was not Demon's own, and that the company was not
responsible for it. That only became clear to me some days after first
logging on. Now to me, when I buy a new car, I expect the steering wheel,
which does all the controlling, to be supplied, and to work with the car.
Surely that should be the same with a Demon internet connection?

      
>> >The fact that Demon provided support to him in order to try to get him
>> >started is incidental. The support service is principally to answer 
>> >queries on the use of the service. We do not offer software support as
>> >part of the subscription fee, but on the basis of best endevours to
>> >assist our customers.

The absence of software support was not mentioned to me when I handed over
my money.


>> the company was Atari-friendly. I have never made use of the support
>> service, but find it very hard to believe that they don't have an Atari
>> set-up to at least make an effort to help.
>
>We did have such, but there was little demand. The 'expert' left the
>company and the level of demand for Atari support is such that we have
>not seen the need to actively recruit an expert.
>
>The departure of our expert however does not make Demon any less Atari
>friendly. We offer the same internet connection interface to all our
>customers, regardless of their platform.

If there is no-one available to provide official help to Atari users with
their specific problems then this should be mentioned at the time of 
opening the account. Then the customer can decide if this might be a 
problem. Some people don't need help, others do. I'm a bit of an expert
with extend and assign sys files, people come to me with their problems in
this area. I can help them. But in other areas I need help!
  

>> >Demon fulfilled their part of the contract, they are therefore 
>> >entitled to be paid, even given the unfortunate circumstances that Mr.
>> >Harrop was unable to get his choice of hardware and software to work.
>
>> If Demon were more upfront in regard to the many (IMHO) problems being
>> encountered by Atari users, then Atari users wouldn't waste their money and
>> Demon's time in setting up the account. I specifically stated that I owned
>> an Atari when I opened the account. There was no mention of the fact that
>> using Ataris with Demon is difficult.
>
>Connection with an Atari is no more difficult that with any other
>machine. What may be more difficult is obtaining and configuring
>software to make that connection.

I accept that other platform users also have problems, sorry if I was too
Atari specific. But, I would guess that PC users get a better level of
support simply because the support staff are much more knowledgable on this
platform. BTW, I am NOT suggesting that Demon provide better support to
some platforms as a policy.

   
>> If it wasn't for the help of an ex-Atari user, who changed to a PC because
>> of the problems he had with using an ST with Demon, I would probably never
>> even been able to send this posting.
>
>So he can connect from the PC but not from the Atari. In what way does
>this make our service unfriendly to Atari ? What was changed at our
>end for his account to work with the PC ?  [nothing]

I accept nothing has changed at Demon, but the ex-Atari-user had a better
level of support when he switched to a PC. Probably the wider choice of
software on the PC has helped him a lot. Atari-users until recently only
had one package, which despite doing the job was a bit unfriendly to new
users. The documentation didn't make life much easier. 
  

>> Although I do not expect Demon to spend hours on the phone teaching me
>> how to use my software, I did expect them to make me aware of the
>> problems I would encounter. 
>
>How can we be aware of the problems you will encounter ? Everyones
>experience of setting up an internet connection differs. Look in the
>newsgroups for evidence of this.

From the newsgroup postings there are obviously common problems being
encountered by Atari-users when connecting to Demon. Perhaps Demon should 
analyse these and at least make people aware of them, even if they can't
really put them right.   


>> The software I downloaded from Demon's BBS was NOS 0.41, which was out
>> of date. The documentation made, in many cases, little reference to the
>> ST if at all. It was only through help of other people, that I was able
>> to source a copy of Oasis 1.34. Only since then, have I been able to 
>> make any use of Demon's services.
>
>The FTP server / BBS only hold software that has been uploaded by
>helpful users. None of it is Demon software. All of it is on the basis
>of 'take it as you find it'
>
>If you want software that is guaranteed to work and supported, you
>have to pay for it from an appropriate supplier. Demon for example
>have just released a supported and guaranteed Windows product for the
>PC. This however can not be downloaded from anywhere, but is supplied
>by post.

My company produce a monthly magazine. I make sure my editor includes
up-to-date news, not stuff a year out of date. Obviously the editor relys
upon his correspondents and radio stations supplying him with up-to-date
news, but he makes sure that if new information is around, he makes it
available to the readers. Surely this must be the same with Demon? If a
better or more up-to-date Atari software package is available, Demon, even
if they are not *supplying* the package, could make people aware of it?    
  

>> My suggestion is that Demon, if they are to keep Atari-users with their
>> service is to at least make sure that their downloaded software is more
>> up-to-date, the documentation is relevant, and they provide some form of
>> specific Atari tutorial to allow people to get started. If they did this,
>> then many people including the gentleman that Neil Martin originally wrote
>> about, would have much more of a chance of making use of what they have
>> paid for. 
>
>The download software will be more up to date as soon as someone
>uploads it. We do not produce or source the software, we do not write
>the documentation. You have a choice. Use what is free with all the
>implications of free software or pay for support. Demon are in the
>internet conenction business, not software support business, at least
>as far as the Atari and most other platforms are concerned.

I now understand that Demon do not support software, but why did it have to
come through you now and not told to me when I signed up?


>> I know Malcolm that you are not speaking for Demon officially, but perhaps
>> you could make them aware of the problems being faced by many Atari-users.
>> I for one have very seriously considered cancelling my Demon account. I
>> will not make a hasty decision, but if the problems I am constantly facing
>> don't get any better soon, I'm off elsewhere.
>
>If you consider you will do better elsewhere, that is your option.
>Demon are aware of the need to move towards supported software, but
>that will always be at additional cost to the user. We are already
>moving in this direction with Windows on the PC and the Turnpike
>package. I can only suggest that you are very careful in selecting
>another supplier to check what you are actually purchasing.

I am pleased to hear that Demon are moving towards supporting software,
that would be good for both the company and its customers. I for one
wouldn't object to paying an extra �20 or whatever, if Demon offered me
the current Oasis package. 

With regard to other services, I haven't really investigated it yet. Heck,
I have only just shelled out �26 for my set-up fee and first month on
Demon, I want a bit more use. But.....

 
>> Sorry if I have rambled, but I do think Demon are partly to blame for
>> many of the Atari-related problems. I don't hold them responsible for
>> links outside their own network, but I DO hold them responsible for
>> making access to my local PoP a lot more reliable, I am really dreading
>> my next phonebill, especially when I see the large amount of wasted
>> phone calls to my PoP.
>
>We are aware of problems some users have in accessing some PoP's and
>are working on trying to discover the cause. More often than not the
>cause is turning out to be external to Demon.

Glad to hear that Demon are aware of the problems with connecting to some
PoP's. That is my major problem, the only time I have relatively few
problems is about 5am, and then I usually connect with the local PoP at the
second attempt. Just as well, it's a local call ;-) Calling at this time is
disrupting my sleep pattern a bit though! 

If I make a few suggestions now:

Guy Harrison in his posting in this thread suggested that it might be
possible to make available for download a preconfigured set-up. This is a
good idea, but I am aware there could be problems.

There are a number of knowledgable Atari-users who frequent this area, and
as Demon don't currently have an Atari 'expert', perhaps they should
approach one of these people and ask them (and pay them!) to spend a few
hours updating the Atari download on Demon's BBS. Making sure that the
documentation is relevant to the Atari, providing a proper glossary of the
messages we can expect to see when we connect - it took me days before I
realised what the 'bad response 400' etc type messages meant! A bit of
thought and time spent in making life easier for Atari-users now, would
benefit all in the future.

I understand that CiX are now, apparently, going out of their way to make
themselves more Atari-friendly, and offering better Atari support. I am not
suggesting that everyone cancels their account with Demon, but if CiX can
do it, then so can Demon.

Finally, I want to stress that I am not a Demon knocker - in fact I was
pleased to hear the Demon spokesman say on recent BBC Radio 4 news
programme that the company would not be cutting off access to various news
groups (in relation to the Compuserve German affair) because of the freedom
of speech implications. I simply want Demon to be a bit better at informing
their Atari-owning customers as to what and what they don't supply or
support, and at least make a bit of a better effort to help us
Atari-people. We get ignored enough by other computer-related companies
- Hi HP! - without another one doing the same.

Thanks for listening Malcolm, even if we have to disagree.

I'm back off into my shell now!                 
     
BeST regards

Mike Kerslake
__

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                              mike@coconut.demon.co.uk
                          where The Atari (b)eats Bill Gates 
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