🚀 go-pugleaf

v$af$ppint@i-m-t.demon.co.uk wrote:

>   sum1@flashy.nut "Ian" responded in depth, and upon many topics:
> >
> >Er,  are we still on duty extending this now very offtopic thread to
>
>         - well, no-one's objected to it...
>
>                                      - so far...  ([2,3])
>
>         - but please feel free to snip parts that i have not, where
>         you feel the context is no longer required;
>
I have been! To some extent anyway.

> >>>>    of the form of barnes wallis' proposed supersonic air-
> >>>>    liner for (iirc) vickers in the lines of the concord[e].
> >>>>
> >>      form, "V.1000" (i.e. possibly "V.3000" or "V.2000"); and
> >
> >It wouldn't have been the first  "airbus' airliner, would it?
>
>         - no, no; it was *way* before that - before even the round
>
> >alongside its production line, they were also building an airbus.
>
>         - hmmm?  the airbus project was simultanous with - even
>         the end of - the building of the avro vulcan?  i'm not
>         gainsaying you - but call me "provisionally astounded."
> >
Memory partly coming back - the airliner I saw being built )and I
believe the company  was AVro - was tiny compared to the modern
passenger planes  and had wings at right angles to the body, not swept
back like the Vulcan bomber.
I was maybe projecting the airbus name back before its time.

> >>>went into the drink because of metal fatigue if I remember aright.
> >>      - yes, as to the metal fatigue, spreading from the corner
> >>
> >flights where I got a window seat, I found myself touching the rims
>
>         - *g*  - and did you find any?
>
No! The thing held together all the way. You can't do an emergency
landing on the waves, so I was quite relieved:  I can't swim...
But on a flight back from Seattle,on the Pacific north west coast, we
passed, I think, over the desert that has the dreaded Death Valley
somewhere in it, and the heat waves coming up made that plane really
rock and roll.  And I distinctly heard the airframe or maybe the
fuselage/body actually creaking under the strain.  But, again, the
crate got us to DFW International.

>         surrounds, i shouldn't've thought it very likely such'd be
>         visible from the inside of the cabin - but i am no expert
>         on the subject.)
>
Not sure if the  Comets' fatal cracks were inside or out; I'd guess the
latter as if inside, someone would have spotted them, perhaps in time for
the crew to get to the nearest airport.
I read a very long time ago, Neville Shute's  No Highway,which is about
an eccentric technician predicting the metal fatigue in a
fictional airliner but no one takes it seriously.

> >I also listened closely to the sound of the engines, but they never
> >missed a beat.
>
>         - umm; i wasn't aware of any scheduled transatlantic pass-
>         enger flights by propellor-pulled aircraft in "recent"
>         years; do any other aeroplanes' engines produce a beat?
> >
Oh, that was one of my hangovers from my old Rocker days in the early
Sixties, when such slang was in common use among us. You're maybe too
young to recall these black leather clad lunatics who hurtled about at
criminally high speeds?

> >
>
>         - no, no; it was indeed a jet. [and still is; i believe both
>         comets and nimrods both are still either flying, or capable
>         of the feat.]
>           but they were and are all subsonic; as some single-engined
>         propellor-pulled piston-engined aircraft of WW II were, at a
>         pinch, nevertheless trans-sonic; and the vickers vanguard was
>         both propellor-pulled and jet driven (and subsonic), being a
>         "turboprop."
Oh right - I tend to think of all jets being supersonic.
>
> >>>remarked that it looked very cumbersome and heavy and must be a pig
> >>      doing aerobatics in a Vulcan?  [a]
> >
> >likely to throw the thing about I suppose. And equally unlikely if they
> >were routine flights practising for the real thing.
>
>         - *nods*  - recklessly endangering her maj's property would
>         not've been very kindly regarded by their squadron leader,
>         group captain - or the air ministry.
>
I seem to remember hearing o r reading that a RAF pilot signs an
agreement that if he loses the aircraft he has to pay for it. Seems most
unlikely considering the cost of the thing!
It may have been in the true account by the pilot of  a Tornado that was
shot down by ground fire during the first war with Iraq.

> >comical thing was, a farm worker in a field a quarter of a mile away,
> >Earplugs?  Total deafness from previous exposure to it?
>
>         - i don't know when compulsory provision of earplugs (or of
>         ear defenders) for agricultural workers came in, but i'd be
>         surprised, were it as early as the late sixties. (and actual
>         effective enforcement upon the farm workers' making proper
>         use of them later still, of course...)
> >
It would have been about 1979 or '80.  I didn't know farm workers  were
supplied with earplugs.

> >>      interest for me, for a long time now - i blame "capt." w.
> >>      e. johns; and later larry forrester, paul brickhill, con-
> >
> >Aha, very like my lifelong interest (obsession) in war and military
> >thing immensely important and exciting....
>
>         - i, too, became very interested in the Great War and its
>         continuation, especially in WW II at first; but beacause
>         it _was_ exciting to read eye-witness accounts and [auto/]
>         biographies of those who'd fought in them, and stories well-
>         based upon real experiences, not because i felt i'd missed
>         out on the excitement & adventure myself - i'm pretty sure
>         i was aware that it was in reality also bloody dangerous!
>
Any armed conflict is just horrible, and as weapons become more and more
powerful and sophisticated, so the injuries get more and more horrific.
A spear thrust or a slashing sabre is bad enough but  having your  limbs
and/or  body being pierced by white  hot shrapnel or ripped apart is a
hell of a lot more fearsome. I wouldn't go near armed combat for a
million dollars a week; I'm no hero!
My generation is one of the very few lucky enough to be  17 - 28 years old
at a time when there were no major wars going on, for which I am
profoundly thankful.
Britain's Prime Ministers at the time  of the   Vietnam shambles
sensibly  refused to join in.

>         - i also greatly appreciated the works of wilfred owen, so
Oh definitely - I think I've read all of his work. Powerful stuff.
Siegfried Sassoon is equally good, and one or two others.

>         system; i did *not* like those who "glorified war".
>
No, nothing glorious about it, except the huge profits made by
manufacturers.

> >et al. And his sworn enemy, Von Scheinehund
>
>         - "von stalhein"; which i suspect now would have meant "the
>         prussian noble - or self-styled so - man of steel" - but i
>
I think 'stal', or maybe it was 'stahl' was steel as in Stalhelm or
Stahlhelm,  steel helmet.

>         - just about always, yes; but they did, eventually, bury the
>         hatchet; and even come to a strange kind of almost-friendship.
>
I must have missed that one. Incidentally, Douglas Bader, when he was
badgering the RAF to let him fly  again, had to go fora medical
at one point and the doctor was none other than W E Johns!  So  his rank
was the captaincy all doctors are given.

> >Got Away, Elleston Trevor's Squadron Airborne.
>
>         - *nods*, *nods*, *nods*, *nods*; nope, missed that; would
>         you recommend it, now?
The Elleston Trevor one?  I'd be surprised if anyof his war theme books
are still in print;  I think they were writtenin the late Forties or
early Fifties. Sinceit was so long ago, I don't recall its literary
quality but all his books were good workmanlike narratives, I thought.

>         week, much/most of the time.) (i got a serious-though-friendly
>         quiz from the county librarian when _I Flew for the Fuerher_
>         and _The Red Knight of Germany_ both came in from the county
>         reserve collection for me...) (the lcc county reserve collect-
Had much the same  -but definitely not friendly - query from the old
dragon who was at the counter of the adults library: I'd tired of the
books  in the childrens section, borrowed some adult tickets from
family, and was taking out non-fiction at a time when my head barely
came over the counter top!

>         ion, i think.) (all now broken up and dispersed, thanks to
>         bloody thatcher, alas.) (and also to major, i should allow.)
>
Bad news.  The British public library service was super when I was
using it, e.g. the Central Library in Manchester had a famous reference
section.
> >Have you read Len Deighton's  Goodbye Mickey Mouse?  It mainly centers
>         - yes; but only the once, and not very long before i was
>         vegetablised, so i've lost much of what i gained from it,
>         i suspect. including:
It does start off a bit slow, I seem to remember.

> >And a poignant twist at the end too.
>
>         - if ever i sort out my books at home, i shall _definitely_
>         re-read it.
> >
It's odd but sometimes a book one person rates highly and recommends, just
doesn't work for another.

> >Oh, I didn't get much in the pre-paid return!  Food rationing, a tiny
> >surprised we survived at all! Education was pretty good but I only got
>
>         - "rising five" to thirteen?  i *think* there were yet four-
>         teen-year-old leavers, when i were at summerside...  but i
>         don't remember being aware of there still being any, by the
It was strictly against the law at the time, but as we moved to Glasgow
I should have started at another school for the last year or 18 months but
just sort of didn't;  spent the time exploring that city, and the school
I'd been going to was burnt down not long after I left so the records
were destroyed. So, I got away  with it and then it was work from my 15th
birthday.

>         time i was lucky enough to get an assisted place to a direct
>         grant grammar school - which would've been c. september 1963.
>
Yes, if you were bright enough and hardworking that grant was usually
the only way to get on to the University level. Obviously, with no
qualifications, I didn't. But, looking  back, I did pretty well.
But not by drawing a weekly pittance! Could be that some of  my
contemporaries who did the University bit didn't fare quite
so well.

>         (the drop in my class numbers on moving schools was a major
>         shock - from being one amongst forty-four, to being one of
>         only twenty-six; and whilst i was very much less aware of it
>         at the time, the change in quality of the teachers - not so
>         much, of the very best of them, but that "only" one or two
>         were poor-to-lousy at the job of teaching children, rather
>         than maybe one in three...)
>
I've heard the loss of the grammar school setup during the infamous
Wilson's  reign being deplored by  many. Apparently the comprehensive
school  system was a dreadful failure.

> >Things could only get better after that...
>
>         - do i detect a slightly bitter edge,or a touch of cynicism?
>
No, not really - more a  self mockery sort of thing. And of course,
almost everyone was skint in those postwar years, and everyone was on
rationing although  in my small town - fishing and agriculture all
around - rabbit was plentiful and not  rationed so my diet included
rabbit boiled, usually. It was quite nice actually and nourishing. City
kids probably didn't do so well.

>         - well, you may have cause; but i should say that, if we fail
>         to provide our children with opportunities to take advantage
>         of better education, than was available to us, as a society,
>         then we're not only failing them: we're also putting at risk
>         the society in which we'll shortly be living, and upon which
>         our own standards of life & living depend, now and in future.
> >
Generally I agree in principle but I dislike parting with money!
Incidentally, it seems the generation growing up today in America will
not do as well as their parents in standard of living, choice of
profession, pension, etc, and this is contrary to many many previous
generations.  You know, the poor immigrant or factory worker  who
ensured his children went to University and got to be a lawyer, doctor,
and the like.

> >>>ended up a poverty-stricken bankrupt after having foolishly given away
> >>>all his wealth.
> >>      - hmm. "adequate-and-affordable" donations investing in
> >>      different circumstances from ours.
> >
> >George the First fixed it so that charitable organizations would do
> >it instead.
>
>         - georgie did?  - or the treacherously-ungrateful middle-
>         classes of the colonies' persuading the working-classes to
>         fight, and be prepared to die, so as to preserve the profits
>         of those rich from being taxed to pay for the very war that
>         had brought them a goodly measure of their wealth, and also
>         their security from looting, pillaging and dispossession by
>         french troops and french-allied indians - and just about
>         bankrupted georgie's treasury? (*vbg* - [1])
>
I meant the pathetic excuse for a President who currently soils the
White House with his odious presence! He and his cronies really seem to be growing
more and more arrogant with every passing week.  For example he  recently
declared  that a woman on his staff,or rather the staff of  his mate the
Federal Attorney, would not be allowed to give testimony to a committee
although she'd been subpoenaed to do so. He claimed Presidential
privilege or some such rubbish.
He'll be claiming the Divine right to rule next.

> >>       have quite possibly considerably reduced his capital:
> >
> >Exactly! And that's bad news. The more it accumulates the more it
> >generates: a wonderful setup. But recklessly giving any part of
> >it away... shudder. God forbid. Why, it's a kind of black heresy!
>
>         - oh, if we're getting onto discussing matters of religion,
>         i think this part of the thread, at least, should tranlated
>         be to another place. unless the religious dispute be as to
>         the superiority of dosses... *g*
> >
My only 'religion' is worshipping Mammon (which I'm fairly sure is
frowned upon somewhere in the New Testament). There's also a nasty crack
about camels passing through the eye of a needle etc, too.

> >>      but he will have actually enjoyed the last twenty to forty
> >>
> >I'll take the miserable friendless life any day, if the alternative
> >is parting with cash to feed the needy! (Are there no workhouses,
> >are there no prisons?)
>
>         - *g*  - i'faith, very few of the former survive to be
>         reported to your august self; and of the latter, and of
>         their ability to deal with the secure housing of those
>         that the magisterial classes would there inter all who
>         threaten their property, let alone their health, there is
>         considerable doubt...
>
I've heard the convicts are able to wander off and vanish into the crowd
nowadays. Very seldom happens in the states, or at least here in Texas.
And they inject  a needleful of fatal fluid into you for murder too,
which is a good idea as long as I'm not in the starring role!
Housebreaking is not a very clever thing to do  either, as almost every
Texan has at least one gun in his house, and you can legally kill someone
on your property - even the garden - with evil intent.
you try doing that in Britain.....

> >on their lips, well, let them look out for the anti-personnel mines
>
>         - <fx: suitably impressed>: do you also eat babies?
>
I'm very fond of children - boiled, fried, roasted, with suitable
vegetables. But usually I just make do with a bowl of gruel before
bedtime.
Frugal living and careful investment is the only way.

> >
> >I do in fact tend to say similar, more up to date  things in that vein
>
>         - i never have understood why everyone gives presents to
>         everyone else, upon the occasion of a birthday anniversary.
>         i mean to say, it's not as though i know any significant
>         fraction of those so engaged - and nor have they, most of
>         them, ever heard of me. it's a puzzlement, and must be put
>         down to the general insanity of humanity.
>
It's a  yearly mass hysteria whipped up by clever advertising company
coupled with the odd desire of most to spend beyond their means  like
there  is no tomorrow. Which is part of the reason for the astronomical
consumer debt in this country, and probably in Britain also.
One chap whose profession makes him aware of my financial affairs
remarked on the phone  that I was 'very remarkable'.  Well, I knew I was
but asked him how come exactly. And he said, You don't owe any money to
anyone. Which apparently is  so unusual among his clients, he found it
odd.

> >>      - ah, you've snipped the crucial context - without which,
> >>
> >Oh, it's a quote?  Not one I recognize I'm afraid.
> >
> >>                                      wish to cc. or e-mail me.]
> >
I think I saw the reference in the other thread, but  these are not books I
ever read.

> >
>         a newsgroup where some others might appreciate it, and
>         perhaps even join in, just mention the group [so long as
>         it be fairly low-traffic; or alt.fan.pratchett *g*] and
>         cross-post with followup-to: set; and i will respond to
>         it there. but we don't _seem_ to be annoying anyone...[3]
>
I can't think  of one n/group on my current selected group of about ten
that would suit, except just possibly the alt.fan.goons one, which is now
very off topic but highly amusing and has a  small number of intelligent
witty folk in it
>
>         [2] - maybe they're all asleep, soaking up the sun in the
>               summer's heat?
Not from what I hear of the british weather right now! It was mentioned
on the BBC World Service and sounds pretty catastrophic.
All I've got is 90 F plus temperatures and a soaring electric bill as the
air conditioning is roaring away most of the time and eating dollars.
Groan .. more expense....
--
Ian