🚀 go-pugleaf

Keith Crook <keith@valperga.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Skimming through hundreds of messages after some time from the mac I failed
> to take in a discussion on external boot disks for PowerMacs and can't find
> it on DejaNews.  Please would someone give me a quick summary of why an
> external 1Gb Jaz (blessed as the start-up disk) fails to take control of my
> PowerMac 7200/90?

I can think of no real reason why it wouldn't work, I regularly boot
from CD or Zip.  I take it you have installed a system folder onto it
properly and not just copied it across?  Are you selecting it as the
startup disk int eh control pannel or by keypresses at bootup?

Keith Crook <keith@valperga.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Skimming through hundreds of messages after some time from the mac I failed
> to take in a discussion on external boot disks for PowerMacs and can't find
> it on DejaNews.  Please would someone give me a quick summary of why an
> external 1Gb Jaz (blessed as the start-up disk) fails to take control of my
> PowerMac 7200/90?

When you say `blessed as the startup disc' do you mean that you've
ensured that the System Folder is blessed; or do you mean that you've
selected the disc (as in the actual disc in the drive) as the startup
device using the Startup Disc control panel?

What *does* happen when you start up?  Have you tried sabotaging your
usual boot disc by taking the System file out of the System Folder and
then un-blessing the System Folder?  Will it boot off the Jaz drive
then?  (and do make sure you've got some sort of working boot disc (CD
or floppy) handy before you do this).

Maybe the Jaz drive hasn't powered up enough by the time the PowerMac is
looking for a startup device?

(I've heard of trouble booting Mac Pluses off Zip drives because of
trouble with the non-standard SCSI port and the inability of the Mac
Plus to use the latest drivers, but never anything like this.)

Rowland.

-- 
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In article <B149D137966814E056@0.0.0.0>,
keith@valperga.demon.co.uk (Keith Crook) wrote:

>Please would someone give me a quick summary of why an
>external 1Gb Jaz (blessed as the start-up disk) fails to take control of my
>PowerMac 7200/90?

You need either to have it set as the startup disk in the control panel, or
to press Cmd-Opt-Shift-Del at start-up. That certainly works for me with a
Zip on a 7500. 

-- 
Peter

Many thanks to Peter, Paul, Rebecca & Rowland for their contributions.  You
all give me hope, despite seeing somewhere on one of my newsgroups that
there was a problem with booting from an external HD.  I'll experiment some
more but here are answer to your queries.

I formatted and intitialiised the Jaz cartridge and installed 7.6.1 from
the CD.  I selected the cartridge as the start-up disk from the control
panel on the 7200/90 and checked that this was recognised on the Jaz
cartridge system.  I shut down both the 7200/90 and the Jaz.  Re-started
the Jaz drive; inserted the cartridge and waited for it to spin up;
re-started the 7200/90.  Result: the 7200/90 hung at the Happy Mac symbol. 
This happened twice, at which point I remembered (?) a thread somewhere
about external HD troubles. 

I am ready to include my memory in the user error category and will try the
key sequence start-up and re-naming the 7200/90 folder etc. My reason for
wishing to use the Jaz as a start up is that my scanning work is requiring
enormous scratch pads which the 500Mb internal HD no longer has space for. 
So I installed Photoshop with its own system on the external cartridge as a
"scanner/ imaging platform".

Keith


Keith Crook
keith@valperga.demon.co.uk

Thanks to the group's encouragement I continued to look for a way of
getting the Jaz drive to act as a boot disk and I have found the solution. 
It seems to be bug in System 7.6.  I decided to re-install the system,
after various other failed options, and then noticed that the CD held
System 7.6 and not the upgrade.  I had forgotten that I had downloaded the
upgrade to 7.6.1 (getting so used to having the system on CD these days)
and once I upgraded the Jaz drive worked perfectly as the boot disk.

Cmd-opt-shift-del (under system 7.6) BTW disables some extensions and tries
to re-build the disk file.  Works as Peter said under 7.6.1.

Keith Crook
keith@valperga.demon.co.uk

Keith Crook <keith@valperga.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Cmd-opt-shift-del (under system 7.6) BTW disables some extensions and tries
> to re-build the disk file.  Works as Peter said under 7.6.1.

Are you sure you aren't holding the buttons down too long, once the
happy mac or whatever has gone away you shoudl be able to let go.  Also
you can hold down the SCSI ID of the Jaz along with the above key
combination which is useful if you have more than 2 devices.

keith@valperga.demon.co.uk (Keith Crook) wrote:

==> Many thanks to Peter, Paul, Rebecca & Rowland for their contributions. 
You
==> all give me hope, despite seeing somewhere on one of my newsgroups that
==> there was a problem with booting from an external HD.  I'll experiment
some
==> more but here are answer to your queries.
==> 
==> I formatted and intitialiised the Jaz cartridge and installed 7.6.1
from
==> the CD.  I selected the cartridge as the start-up disk from the control
==> panel on the 7200/90 and checked that this was recognised on the Jaz
==> cartridge system.  I shut down both the 7200/90 and the Jaz. 
Re-started
==> the Jaz drive; inserted the cartridge and waited for it to spin up;
==> re-started the 7200/90.  Result: the 7200/90 hung at the Happy Mac
symbol. 
==> This happened twice, at which point I remembered (?) a thread somewhere
==> about external HD troubles. 

I know you've solved your problem when updating to 7.6.1, but there is
another gothcha it could have been (and might bite you later).

The Jaz driver is held in 2 places - the system folder and the disk itself.
 If you're booting from the Jaz drive, the system needs a driver before
it's read in the system folder, so it's the one on the disk that's used. 
On the other hand, if you turn the Jaz on without a disk in, the driver is
loaded from the system folder and automatically mounts the disk without
having to refer to the disk's driver.

Often, when updating drivers, people forget to check what's on the disks
and an incompatible driver/system version can result.  This usually occurs
when people upgrade their OS to, for example, 7.6.1 and beyond, which came
with driver version 5.0.3 (Ithink - I'm using 5.1.1 with B8.0), which
causes problems with 7.6 (I think 5.0.1 was the last driver that could run
comfortably with 7.6), but forget to ensure that the drivers on the disk
itself are updated.  I suspect you have the reverse problem.

Note that mounting the drive with SCSIProbe or similar can have the same
effect, which is why Iomega doesn't recommend it.

Sorry to be late and irrelevent to the discussion.

Yours,

Andrew

*** This note was written listening to "Smile" by Dianne Reeves - excellent
track!! ***

In article <1d6xbvg.457nvmvfddaoN@pwomar.demon.co.uk>,
Newsmaster@pwomar.demon.co.uk (Paul Womar) wrote:

re my comment:

>> Cmd-opt-shift-del (under system 7.6) BTW disables some extensions and tries
>> to re-build the disk file.

>Are you sure you aren't holding the buttons down too long, once the
>happy mac or whatever has gone away you shoudl be able to let go.  Also
>you can hold down the SCSI ID of the Jaz along with the above key
>combination which is useful if you have more than 2 devices.

No to the first.  The Happy Mac just kep' smilin'.

Thanks for the second.  That's new to me.

Keith


Keith Crook
keith@valperga.demon.co.uk

In article <B14C08F39668C71FE@foakes.demon.co.uk>,
null@foakes.demon.co.uk (Andrew Foakes) wrote:

>I know you've solved your problem when updating to 7.6.1, but there is
>another gothcha it could have been (and might bite you later).
>
>The Jaz driver is held in 2 places - the system folder and the disk itself.
> If you're booting from the Jaz drive, the system needs a driver before
>it's read in the system folder, so it's the one on the disk that's used. 
>On the other hand, if you turn the Jaz on without a disk in, the driver is
>loaded from the system folder and automatically mounts the disk without
>having to refer to the disk's driver.

I take it this means that the system folder on the *internal* CPU hard
disk, since there's nothing to read in the Jaz drive.  If so, my machine
goes ahead and boots from the internal HD since it can see no external
alternative. 

>Often, when updating drivers, people forget to check what's on the disks
>and an incompatible driver/system version can result.  This usually occurs
>when people upgrade their OS to, for example, 7.6.1 and beyond, which came
>with driver version 5.0.3 (Ithink - I'm using 5.1.1 with B8.0), which
>causes problems with 7.6 (I think 5.0.1 was the last driver that could run
>comfortably with 7.6), but forget to ensure that the drivers on the disk
>itself are updated.  I suspect you have the reverse problem.

An extra snag for the Jaz IDE drive is that it uses an non Apple driver
(Anubis in my case).  So, when I formatted the drive, the Installer refused
to update the driver on System 7.6.  The range of compatibility of Anubis
driver versions may not match exactly those of Apple, I imagine.  Might win
some and lose others, perhaps.

>Sorry to be late and irrelevent to the discussion.

Glad to have the information.  Like Dr Johnson who said if it rained
knowledge he would put out his hand.  (Might get the occasional passing
seagull's contribution now and then.)

Keith


Keith Crook
keith@valperga.demon.co.uk

Rebecca and Rowland wrote:
> 
> Keith Crook <keith@valperga.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Skimming through hundreds of messages after some time from the mac I failed
> > to take in a discussion on external boot disks for PowerMacs and can't find
> > it on DejaNews.  Please would someone give me a quick summary of why an
> > external 1Gb Jaz (blessed as the start-up disk) fails to take control of my
> > PowerMac 7200/90?
> 
> When you say `blessed as the startup disc' do you mean that you've
> ensured that the System Folder is blessed; or do you mean that you've
> selected the disc (as in the actual disc in the drive) as the startup
> device using the Startup Disc control panel?
> 
> What *does* happen when you start up?  Have you tried sabotaging your
> usual boot disc by taking the System file out of the System Folder and
> then un-blessing the System Folder?  Will it boot off the Jaz drive
> then?  (and do make sure you've got some sort of working boot disc (CD
> or floppy) handy before you do this).
> 
> Maybe the Jaz drive hasn't powered up enough by the time the PowerMac is
> looking for a startup device?
> 
> (I've heard of trouble booting Mac Pluses off Zip drives because of
> trouble with the non-standard SCSI port and the inability of the Mac
> Plus to use the latest drivers, but never anything like this.)
> 
> Rowland.
> 
> --
> Remove the animal for my email address:   rebecca@astrid.dog.u-net.com
> Sorry - the spam got to me.                       PGP pub key A680B89D
> UK biker?                    Join MAG and help keep bureaucracy at bay
>                           http://dredd.meng.ucl.ac.uk/www/mag/mag.html
Just a thought,
	your system folder on the Jaz AIN'T "blessed unless its icon has a 
miniature mac symbol int he middle of it.  Is yours really Blessed?

To be sure it has been blessed, double click on the file finder inside the Jaz 
system folder.  You'll be told you can't open it, but the System folder will 
acquire its little mac icon.  Sorry to labour the point if you already did 
this.  But a mac won't boot from a disk with a valid system on it until the 
Finder can recognise the system folder properly.

Steve
tteve @parkfish.demon.co.uk

Steve Parker <steve@parkfish.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]
> To be sure it has been blessed, double click on the file finder inside the Jaz
> system folder.  You'll be told you can't open it, but the System folder will
> acquire its little mac icon.

You normally only need to open and close the System Folder to bless it.

Rowland.

[snip]

-- 
Remove the animal for my email address:   rebecca@astrid.dog.u-net.com
Sorry - the spam got to me.                       PGP pub key A680B89D
UK biker?                    Join MAG and help keep bureaucracy at bay
                          http://dredd.meng.ucl.ac.uk/www/mag/mag.html