🚀 go-pugleaf

Matt Wilson <matt@zamboodle.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I have been given a Macintosh SE computer - it's an all in one case with
> monitor and two disk drives.
> 
> It all appears to work when you power it up, but I have no disks with it
> (they appear to be lost).  So all it does is show a disk icon with a
> flashing '?'.
> 
> What else do I need to get it working (bearing in mind I've only got PCs).

A working boot disc.  System 6.0.8 is what you need, but how to get it
is another matter - do you have any sort of physical access to a working
Mac?

ftp://ftp.apple.com/dts/mac/sys.soft/                    Sys 5.0 - 7.0.1

is a pointer to downloadable disc images of 6.0.8 - they're in BinHex
encoding (hqx) and need to be decoded to be of any direct use.  Decoding
them on a PC will lose the resource fork which is a Bad Thing.

If you have no joy trying to DIY, do ask again (uk.comp.sys.mac is
another good place) and someone can probably post you some boot discs.

> The little Mac's probably ideal for a simple & easy to use word processor
> machine.  

It certainly is - but note that System 6.0.8 (the most recent OS you can
run off floppies) is really rather old so not a lot of modern software
will run - quite a lot of current(ish) software is too big to fit on
floppies even if it *can* run under System 6.

>I'm not too hopeful though, as I seem to recall Macs having a
> non-linear disk format with varying speeds depending where the heads are -
> no PC is going to cope with writing a disk for that!

Bets?

ftp://ftp.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/pub/software/emulators/emul8.bydnet.com.
pl/Macintosh/HFSexplorer111.zip

Anyway, check the case: if it says `FDHD' or `SuperDrive' anywhere on
it, you've got a Mac with 1.4M floppies.  The 800K Mac format uses
variable rotational speed, but the 1.4MB format doesn't.

I *think* you should be able to create working boot discs from the disc
image files using HFSExplorer on a Win32 PC, but I don't have such a
beast so I can't be sure of whether you can or not or how to do the job.

> I have also noticed it appears to have a mini-DIN for the printer port -
> can this be made to work with a 'normal' centronics socket type HP DeskJet
> 600 that's hooked up to my PC?

Does that HP have a serial port?  If so, it should be just a matter of
getting a cable (from anywhere) and driver software from HP:

http://hpcc920.external.hp.com/peripherals/printers/main.html

If not, you might see if an advert in uk.adverts.computer.mac could get
you a PowerPrint RS422-Centronics cable and software (it's a bit pricey
to buy new for a free Mac).

> Anyway, any info appreciated as I would like to get it doing something!

Some urls that might help:

http://www.walli.uwasa.fi/~mhaveri/68000.txt             68k mac FAQ
http://shareware.unc.edu/shareware/home/ftp/pub/mac/  
Vintage Mac software
http://home1.gte.net/mcorphan/system6.html               System 6 page
http://www.edprint.demon.co.uk/se/index.html             Mac SE stuff
http://www.mactimes.com/lowend/               The low-end Mac site
http://www2.prestel.co.uk/macman/classicmac/home.html 
A Classic Macs site
http://www.eden.com/~arena/jagshouse/jagshouseone.html   Jag's house
http://members.aol.com/maccrypt/index.html         Old software and OSs
http://www.gamesdomain.com/tigger/sw-oldmac.html    Old Mac software
http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n22139  How to get Mac OSs
http://www.uwm.edu/~thig/plus.html             Antique Mac pages

And a couple of mailing lists:

To subscribe to Classic Macs,

send e-mail to <Majordomo@hitznet.com>. In the body of the message write

subscribe classics

You will be added within a day.

Vintage Macs, the listserv for users of 68000, 68020, and 68030-based
Macs.
FAQ at http://www.mactimes.com/lowend/vintage/

Hope this helps
Rowland.

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Steve Firth <filter@firthcom.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> > The little Mac's probably ideal for a simple & easy to use word processor
> > machine.  I'm not too hopeful though, as I seem to recall Macs having a
> > non-linear disk format with varying speeds depending where the heads are -
> > no PC is going to cope with writing a disk for that!
> 
> You're right, no PC will.

Do you have access to a 32 bit Windoze box?  If so, this might surprise
you:

ftp://ftp.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/pub/software/emulators/emul8.bydnet.com.
pl/Macintosh/HFSexplorer111.zip

I've not tried it myself (no access to a suitable Wintel box - Rebecca's
still on Win 3.1 at work), but apparently it *will* allow a normal PC
floppy drive to read and write 800K Mac discs.

[snip]

Rowland.

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Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet> wrote 
> A working boot disc.  System 6.0.8 is what you need, but how to get it
> is another matter - do you have any sort of physical access to a working
> Mac?
> 
> ftp://ftp.apple.com/dts/mac/sys.soft/                    Sys 5.0 - 7.0.1
> 
> is a pointer to downloadable disc images of 6.0.8 - they're in BinHex
> encoding (hqx) and need to be decoded to be of any direct use.  Decoding
> them on a PC will lose the resource fork which is a Bad Thing.
>

Ok, I can get access to a 'Power Mac' from the marketing department at
work,
but this doesn't have internet access, whereas I do from my PC.

Can I download the file to the PC, save it to floppies (PC format which
apparently
the Power Mac can read OK) and get that to decode it without the pesky PC
corrupting it?

And what does the Mac need to decode the file?  It's equivalent of 'Winzip'
I suppose (which the PC versions says can decode HQX). 

> It certainly is - but note that System 6.0.8 (the most recent OS you can
> run off floppies) is really rather old so not a lot of modern software
> will run - quite a lot of current(ish) software is too big to fit on
> floppies even if it *can* run under System 6.

So long as it can accept words and save them I'm not fussed about the age -
I presume there's an equivalent of 'wordpad' or 'write' on the Mac.

> ftp://ftp.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/pub/software/emulators/emul8.bydnet.com.
> pl/Macintosh/HFSexplorer111.zip

Downloading as soon as I finish typing this.
> 
> Anyway, check the case: if it says `FDHD' or `SuperDrive' anywhere on
> it, you've got a Mac with 1.4M floppies.  The 800K Mac format uses
> variable rotational speed, but the 1.4MB format doesn't.

Nope the label say dual 800k floppies.  

I've also had a look inside once I made a tool to get to the top two screws
(they're in a deep hole!) and cleaned out the dust.  Low and behold the
main PCB is dated 1987, as is the date code on the case.  Anyway, it has
four 30pin SIMMs - the memory on the label at the back says it's 1Mb, so I
presume 4x256k=1meg.

I happen to have four unused non-parity 70ns 1meg SIMMS out of an old 386
PC - will they go in OK to upgrade it?

And out of interest I note from nosing on the web that you can add a
hard-drive to it.  SCSI I presume.  There is a large shrouded IDC type
connector on the PCB as well - could it plug into there?  Or is it
external?

> Does that HP have a serial port?  

Nope, so I'll have to look out for the necessary.  I shall worry about
printing from it once I've got it going.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Matt Wilson <matt@zamboodle.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Rebecca and Rowland <real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet> wrote 
> > A working boot disc.  System 6.0.8 is what you need, but how to get it
> > is another matter - do you have any sort of physical access to a working
> > Mac?
> > 
> > ftp://ftp.apple.com/dts/mac/sys.soft/                    Sys 5.0 - 7.0.1
> > 
> > is a pointer to downloadable disc images of 6.0.8 - they're in BinHex
> > encoding (hqx) and need to be decoded to be of any direct use.  Decoding
> > them on a PC will lose the resource fork which is a Bad Thing.
> >
> 
> Ok, I can get access to a 'Power Mac' from the marketing department at
> work,
> but this doesn't have internet access, whereas I do from my PC.
> 
> Can I download the file to the PC, save it to floppies (PC format which
> apparently
> the Power Mac can read OK) and get that to decode it without the pesky PC
> corrupting it?

Just so long as you just download the files on the PC and don't do any
decoding, you'll have no trouble - stick the files on a PC disc, copy
them onto the PowerMac's HDD, drop them onto StuffitExpander, and all
should be fine.  You'll also need DiskCopy 4.2 (NOT version 6.anything),
and when you use DiskCopy to create real discs from the disc image
files, make sure you use freshly-formatted floppies that have had no
files put on them (not even ones you've deleted).

these urls should get you DiskCopy 4.2; ftp1.info.apple.com (etc) ought
to work too.

<ftp://ftp13.info.apple.com//Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Maci
ntosh/Utilities/Disk_Copy_4.2.sea.hqx>
<ftp://ftp13.info.apple.com//Apple.Support.Area/Apple_SW_Updates/US/Maci
ntosh/Utilities/Disk_Copy_4.2.txt>

> And what does the Mac need to decode the file?  It's equivalent of 'Winzip'
> I suppose (which the PC versions says can decode HQX). 

You need something like StuffitExpander on the Mac to decode and
decompress the files - it's *probably* already on it (Find File from the
Finder's File menu should help track it down).  If not, you either need
to jump through hoops, or you can pick up any Mac magazine with a cover
disc of any sort and it'll have StuffitExpander on it.

> > It certainly is - but note that System 6.0.8 (the most recent OS you can
> > run off floppies) is really rather old so not a lot of modern software
> > will run - quite a lot of current(ish) software is too big to fit on
> > floppies even if it *can* run under System 6.
> 
> So long as it can accept words and save them I'm not fussed about the age -
> I presume there's an equivalent of 'wordpad' or 'write' on the Mac.

You can do quite a bit better - SimpleText is the nearest equivalent to
those, and it's not *terribly* useful as a WP, but there are other
applications that can be found.  Ask again when you've got the thing
going.

> > ftp://ftp.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/pub/software/emulators/emul8.bydnet.com.
> > pl/Macintosh/HFSexplorer111.zip
> 
> Downloading as soon as I finish typing this.

Do tell if it *does* let you work with 800K Mac discs - I'm told that it
does, but I'm not sure I believe it.

> > Anyway, check the case: if it says `FDHD' or `SuperDrive' anywhere on
> > it, you've got a Mac with 1.4M floppies.  The 800K Mac format uses
> > variable rotational speed, but the 1.4MB format doesn't.
> 
> Nope the label say dual 800k floppies.  

:-/

> I've also had a look inside once I made a tool to get to the top two screws
> (they're in a deep hole!) and cleaned out the dust.  Low and behold the
> main PCB is dated 1987, as is the date code on the case.  Anyway, it has
> four 30pin SIMMs - the memory on the label at the back says it's 1Mb, so I
> presume 4x256k=1meg.

It might already have 4MB fitted to it - the label on the outside of the
box tells you what the machine was made with.

> I happen to have four unused non-parity 70ns 1meg SIMMS out of an old 386
> PC - will they go in OK to upgrade it?

If they're 30 pin SIMMs, they should be fine.  I think a 1987 SE is
probably kitted out with resistors that need fiddling with, rather than
the jump leads fitted to the later models (all subsequent Macs
autodetect the RAM fitted - not the SE, though).

According to the Apple Memory Guide,

Memory Information
DRAM Speed 150 ns
SIMM Type 30-pin
Soldered DRAM None
Number of SIMM Slots 4
Supported Sizes in MB 256K, 1
Maximum DRAM 4 MB
Virtual Memory No
Soldered VRAM None
Number of VRAM Slots None

Note: For a 2.5 MB configuration, clip one
lead of the resistors and move the resistor out
of the way so it can be reinstalled if
necessary.

DRAM Configurations
1 MB - Install four 256K SIMMs.
- Leave resistor R35.
- Remove resistor R36.

2 MB - Install two 1 MB SIMMs
(Slots 1 & 2).
- Remove resistor R35.
- Leave resistor R36.

2.5 MB - Install two 1MB SIMMs
(Slots 1 & 2.)
- Install two 256K SIMMs
(Slots 3 & 4).
- Remove resistor R35.
- Remove resistor R36.

4 MB - Install four 1MB SIMMs.
- Remove resistor R35.
- Remove resistor R36.

> And out of interest I note from nosing on the web that you can add a
> hard-drive to it.  SCSI I presume.  There is a large shrouded IDC type
> connector on the PCB as well - could it plug into there?  Or is it
> external?

You can fit a SCSI HDD inside an SE - getting it formatted for a Mac is
a different matter.  Best to ask on uk.comp.sys.mac when the need
arises. 

(there's a SCSI connector on the case too, so you could use an external
HDD if you wanted to).

> > Does that HP have a serial port?  
[snip]

Rowland.

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In article <01be3d4e$7031ae00$0ac5c5c5@lightning>,
"Matt Wilson" <matt@zamboodle.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Ok, I can get access to a 'Power Mac' from the marketing department at
> work,
> but this doesn't have internet access, whereas I do from my PC.
> 
> Can I download the file to the PC, save it to floppies (PC format which
> apparently
> the Power Mac can read OK) and get that to decode it without the pesky PC
> corrupting it?
> 
> And what does the Mac need to decode the file?  It's equivalent of 'Winzip'
> I suppose (which the PC versions says can decode HQX). 

Down the disk images to your PC *without letting your PC do any kind of
decoding*
Transfer them to the Power Mac.
On the PowerMac you'll need StuffIt Expander. This is downloadable from the
internet, but then you're in a nasty catch-22. Hopefully the Power Mac will
already have a copy, otherwise any cover CD-ROM disk from a Mac Magazine
will have a copy (e.g. MacFormat).
You'll also need Apple's Disk Copy program. Again, this is downloadable
from the Apple Web site, or may well be on cover disks.

You'll then need to decode the disk image archives you downloaded using
StuffIt Expander, and then copy them to actual floppy disks using the Disk
Copy program. If you're getting System 6.0.8, they'll have to be 1MB disks,
not the HD 2MB disks that are common now (i.e. with only the write protect
hole, not the hole in the adjacent corner too)

> So long as it can accept words and save them I'm not fussed about the age -
> I presume there's an equivalent of 'wordpad' or 'write' on the Mac.

I'm not sure hat comes with System 6.0.8. Not a lot. But ClarisWorks 2.x is
very nice and will run on System 6. You may be able to find a copy
second-hand or in old stock somewhere.


> I happen to have four unused non-parity 70ns 1meg SIMMS out of an old 386
> PC - will they go in OK to upgrade it?

So long at they're 8-chip 1MB 30pin SIMMs they'll work fine. If they're
2chip SIMMs they won't work - the SE memory timings were set before the 4Mb
chip standard was set, and the 4Mb chips have a tendancy to go into a test
mode in an SE. This doesn't help when it's trying to access memory!

You'll need to tell the SE it now have 1MB SIMMs. On old SEs (like this one
seems to be) you need to clip one lead of a resistor on the motherboard -
it's near the SIMM sockets and marked '256KB'. On newer SEs there's a
jumper, and on any newer Macs memory configuration is automatic.

> And out of interest I note from nosing on the web that you can add a
> hard-drive to it.  SCSI I presume.  There is a large shrouded IDC type
> connector on the PCB as well - could it plug into there?  Or is it
> external?

SEs have an internal SCSI connector and an external SCSI connector. The
internal disk is supposed to go in place of one of the floppies, but modern
disks are so slim you can probably fit one above the two floppies. You'll
need a 50pin flat data cable and a power splitter. If it's not an original
Apple hard disk, you'll also need third-party formatting software, which
would be uneconomic.



Paul Durrant

Paul Durrant <pdurrant@durrant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> You'll then need to decode the disk image archives you downloaded using
> StuffIt Expander, and then copy them to actual floppy disks using the Disk
> Copy program. If you're getting System 6.0.8, they'll have to be 1MB disks,
> not the HD 2MB disks that are common now (i.e. with only the write protect
> hole, not the hole in the adjacent corner too)

I'd forgotten about that - you can use HD discs, but they'll be
unreliable.  Make sure you get 1MB (unformatted) DS DD discs; 720K
MS-DOS formatted discs are fine, but you might find it helps to format
them twice.  You might need to clean the disc drives too - a cleaning
disc and TechTool (from http://www.micromat.com) will do the job nicely.

> > So long as it can accept words and save them I'm not fussed about the age -
> > I presume there's an equivalent of 'wordpad' or 'write' on the Mac.
> 
> I'm not sure hat comes with System 6.0.8. Not a lot. But ClarisWorks 2.x is
> very nice and will run on System 6. You may be able to find a copy
> second-hand or in old stock somewhere.

Will CW 2 fit on an 800K floppy?

[snip]

> SEs have an internal SCSI connector and an external SCSI connector. The
> internal disk is supposed to go in place of one of the floppies, but modern
> disks are so slim you can probably fit one above the two floppies. You'll
> need a 50pin flat data cable and a power splitter. If it's not an original
> Apple hard disk, you'll also need third-party formatting software, which
> would be uneconomic.

Not quite right - a patched version of Apple's free HD SC Setup 7.3.5
normally does the job wonderfully, and if not, there's a shareware
formatter that might well do the job.

Rowland.

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In article <1dlj7c6.c85cdcq2cw00N@p60.nas3.is3.u-net.net>,
real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rebecca and Rowland) wrote:

> Paul Durrant <pdurrant@durrant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm not sure what comes with System 6.0.8. Not a lot. But ClarisWorks 2.x is
> > very nice and will run on System 6. You may be able to find a copy
> > second-hand or in old stock somewhere.
> 
> Will CW 2 fit on an 800K floppy?

It does come on 800K floppies, but I think you're right that it requires a
hard disk to run. I'd forgotten.

> > If it's not an original
> > Apple hard disk, you'll also need third-party formatting software, which
> > would be uneconomic.
> 
> Not quite right - a patched version of Apple's free HD SC Setup 7.3.5
> normally does the job wonderfully, and if not, there's a shareware
> formatter that might well do the job.

Yes, you're right - there are some patches about to make HD SC Setup skip
the disk check. Very useful if on a tight budget, but it doesn't always
work - it fails to format some disks.  :-(

Paul Durrant

Paul Durrant <pdurrant@durrant.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1dlj7c6.c85cdcq2cw00N@p60.nas3.is3.u-net.net>,
> real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rebecca and Rowland) wrote:
> 
> > Paul Durrant <pdurrant@durrant.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I'm not sure what comes with System 6.0.8. Not a lot. But ClarisWorks
> > > 2.x is very nice and will run on System 6. You may be able to find a
> > > copy second-hand or in old stock somewhere.
> > 
> > Will CW 2 fit on an 800K floppy?
> 
> It does come on 800K floppies, but I think you're right that it requires a
> hard disk to run. I'd forgotten.

CW *1* can run off floppy disc, but the manual says you need a 1.4MB
disc drive (as well as strongly recommending that you don't do it).
Having said that, the CW 1 *application* will fit on an 800K floppy, but
you won't have any translators, dictionaries, and stuff like that.

> > > If it's not an original
> > > Apple hard disk, you'll also need third-party formatting software, which
> > > would be uneconomic.
> > 
> > Not quite right - a patched version of Apple's free HD SC Setup 7.3.5
> > normally does the job wonderfully, and if not, there's a shareware
> > formatter that might well do the job.
> 
> Yes, you're right - there are some patches about to make HD SC Setup skip
> the disk check. Very useful if on a tight budget, but it doesn't always
> work - it fails to format some disks.  :-(

True, but when it works, it works perfectly AFAIK - certainly worth a
try, wouldn't you say?  Since Apple uses Quantum, Seagate and (I think)
IBM HDDs, I'd guess that any `normal' HDD from one of those firms would
be okay with a patched HD SC Setup.

Rowland.

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*SNIP*

> > >
ftp://ftp.iele.polsl.gliwice.pl/pub/software/emulators/emul8.bydnet.com.
> > > pl/Macintosh/HFSexplorer111.zip
> > 
> > Downloading as soon as I finish typing this.
> 
> Do tell if it *does* let you work with 800K Mac discs - I'm told that it
> does, but I'm not sure I believe it.
> 

Well, I have quickly tried it out but it seems to insist on formatting to
around 1.4Mb even if you select the 800kb option.  A dialogue box appears
effectively saying changing to 1.4Mb (or thereabouts anyway).

It then says this isn't a Mac volume or something like that after it
finishes. So I suppose it just writes garbage to the disk.

This was with an old blank DD 1Mb floppy, but I wasn't really paying much
attention to the program, just clicking the options.  It does appear to
work with HD disks, but that's no good with my SE!

I wonder if this 'error' could be because the PC's BIOS is telling the
program it's a 1.4Mb drive.  So I shall play some more over the weekend by
installing my old DD 3.5" disk drive (off my ZX Spectrum would you
believe!) to the PC and seeing if that works.  And I'll look at the
instructions/help file as well!

I shall raid work's Power PC (which has the Stuffit program installed on
it) next week to create some disks for the SE - I've got all the necessary
now from the Apple website.

Thanks to everyone for the help so far.

- Matt.