🚀 go-pugleaf

Erik Alvar wrote:
...
>     I want to thank everyone for the constructive criticism.  3 years ago
> when I initially proposed this, the flames I received were enough to make me
> drop the issue and it eventually died.  That has not been the case this time
> around.

Obviously, it might still die based on some of the arguments
presented, but I still applaud your efforts at going about
exploring the possibilities in the right way.

- Jeff

I am against this! Not one entity in the entire USENET world has a local
auction NG. It's ridiculous. There are sales and there are best offers.
Auctions are for eBay, Yahoo and Amazon. As for local auctions, which I have
yet to see one yet. They can be placed in dfw.forsale per the charter.

Main reason I vote no. The eBay auction would have to say "Will only sell to
DFW residents." Come on. Who is going to do that? Lets get real here.

"Erik Alvar" <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote in message
news:o4vn8.3144$ub3.3085@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>     [Follow ups set to dfw.usenet.config - please confine your replies to
> that newsgroup]
>
>     3/24/02:  I've compiled a list of changes that appeared to be most
> agreeable by the conversation of the past week.
>
>     The primary changes have been to change the name from
> dfw.forsale.auction to dfw.auctions.  Additionally I've changed the
wording
> of section 7 regarding what is not allowed in a dfw.auctions newsgroup,
> should it be adopted.
>
>     I want to thank everyone for the constructive criticism.  3 years ago
> when I initially proposed this, the flames I received were enough to make
me
> drop the issue and it eventually died.  That has not been the case this
time
> around.
>
>     E
>
> ------------------------------------
>     I originally posted this almost three years ago.  I'd like to open
> discussion again, as it would appear that the need for an appropriate ebay
> forum is necessary.
>     Please note that the @hotmail address is still valid, but you'll get a
> quicker response by emailing me at:  ealvar @ netzero . net
>     Thanks,
>     E
> ------------------------------------
> I'd like to open up a discussion on the creation of a new dfw.*
> newsgroup that will be for 'auction' items only.  Basically this group
will
> be your forum for posting links to auction web sites.  However, auctions
> WILL NOT take place in this group.
>
>     The reason?  Personally I think that online auction posts are out of
the
> realm of dfw.forsale.  Why?  They don't comply with the original charter
of
> dfw.forsale.  Excerpted from the dfw.forsale charter:
>
>     "Links to Commercial Auction sites are not permitted"
>
>     Also, in the dfw.forsale FAQ, it clearly prohibits auctions
> (http://www.cirr.com/dfw/faqs/dfw.forsale.html)
>
>     So, why a new newsgroup for auctions?  Simply put, there is a need to
> have a forum for folks who wish to auction items at online auction sites,
> advertise these auctions, and announce the closing of an auction.  There's
> also a need to remove these posts from dfw.forsale, as they're off topic
and
> generate a lot of flames.
>
>     So, here's your chance to express your feelings on this topic.
>
>     Ultimately I think this will benefit all frequent readers of the dfw.*
> Usenet hierarchy.
>
>     After a week or so of discussion I will take this to the RFV (Request
> For Vote) stage to see if there is enough support to create this
newsgroup.
>
>     Thanks for your time.
>
>     Erik Alvar
>
> ealvar@hotmail.com
>
> PROPOSED CHARTER FOR DFW.AUCTIONS
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> For your newsgroups file:
>
> dfw.auctions
>      Things for auction in the Dallas/Ft.Worth Area {local only}
>
> CHARTER
>
> Area of Coverage of dfw.auctions
>
>      This newsgroup is for non-commercial advertisements of goods and
> services for auction exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding
> Areas.
>
>      dfw.auctions is an unmoderated newsgroup.
>
> Intended Use of dfw.auctions
>
>         1.Articles posted in dfw.auctions should be one-time
> announcements, not recurring advertisements. Recurring ads should be on
web
> pages then make a one-time announcement about the location of the page.
>
>         2.Items for auction may be posted twice every week (3-7
days),under
> the following guidelines.
>
>              1.While it remains unsold, as long as the re-posting is
> temporary And no post is posted more then once every 3-7days.
>
>              2.For Auction posts may be followed up by the author with a
> 'Sold' post (indicating the item has been sold) and ONE post indicating
that
> the auction is closing THAT day (i.e. the author will not post more than
> once about the ending of an auction).  The author will NOT post 'status
> reports' indicating the current price of an item.  Again, this is an
auction
> announcement newsgroup, not a forum for actual auctions!
>
>         3.Non commercial postings only. dfw.auctions is restricted to
> individuals auctions. This is not a commercial newsgroup.
>           Commercial includes by definition but not limited to:
>              1.Home based business such as Amway distribution.
>              2.Weekly garage sales.
>              3.Repeated going out of business sales.
>              4.Repetitive selling of the same items, leading to believe
you
> have a never ending supply from a distribution source.
>              5.Store Sales, large and small including home based computer
> sales.
>              6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be
> collected.
>
>         4.This is a for auction newsgroup, and discussion is not allowed
> other then requesting information for a product. It is suggested a valid
> email address be posted for contact information.
>
>         5.Binaries. This is not a binaries group. Do not post executable,
> sound files, image files, etc. in dfw.auctions.
>
>         6.Posts of the following are allowed and should contain in the
> Subject line only the following designations as to the type of post with a
> full description of what is being auctioned to allow for filtering of
> unwanted messages.
>              1.(FA) For Auction
>                Local Auction announcements only for the dfw Area. Items
> available at an Auction, or Auction announcements. Links to Commercial
> Auction sites are permitted. No Public Auctions shall be held in this
> newsgroup.  Only references to items at auction sites are permitted.  Do
NOT
> conduct auctions in this newsgroup.
>                2.(FAS) For Auction: Sold
>                 Each auction announcement should be followed up with ONE
> notice that the auction is now closed.
>                3.(FAC) For Auction: Closing
>                 Each auction announcement CAN be followed up with NO MORE
> THAN ONE notice that the auction is closing THAT DAY.  The author should
> refrain from FAC posts other than the closing date of the auction.
>
> Topics inappropriate for in dfw.auctions
>
>      The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As
> many smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
> per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation of
any
> of the following abuses:
>
>         1."Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes.
> Such schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of bandwidth
> is the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
> activity was left unchecked.
>
>         2.Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64.
>
>         3.MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content-
> encoding other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading
> Usenet do not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to
read
> to interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a plain
> text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
HTML
> for the Web.
>
>         4."spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's.
>
>         5."test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup.
>
>         6.Excessively multiple-posted articles.
>
>         7.Articles cross-posted to *any* other newsgroups
>
>         8.Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro
> Area.
>
>         9.Commercial ads, posts, or advertisements, including URL links to
> such.
>
>        10.Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the
> group.
>
> This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> article posted in the dfw.auctions newsgroup which does not have
> particular relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a
> relevant dfw.* charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to
the
> posters news administrators for dfw.auctions charter violations.
>
>
> Article Format
>
>         1.. Articles posted to dfw.auctions MUST be flat-ASCII. This
> means:
>              1.No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64.
>              2.No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the
> simplest text-only newsreader.
>              3.No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable.
>              4.No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of
> the post.
>
>         2.Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be
> made available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file posted.
>
>         3.Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid"
> domain is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition
> USENET newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to
> be anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.auctions. Post this
> material elsewhere.
>
>         4.ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers.
Nor
> should any attempts, execept minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
> origins of the posting.
>
>         5.Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:"
> header with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line
SHOULD
> be adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or replacing
> this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article was
> injected.
>
>      Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in
an
> article being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized
> moderation device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles
> cross-posted to other groups and dfw.auctions must still follow the
> criteria of dfw.auctions and be subject to these rules.
>
> Ending Statement.
>
> Questions can be posted to the group if you are just unsure and want to
know
> before doing something.
>
>
>
>
>

"Erik Alvar" <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote in message
news:o4vn8.3144$ub3.3085@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

>         2.Items for auction may be posted twice every week (3-7
days),under
> the following guidelines.
>
>              1.While it remains unsold, as long as the re-posting is
> temporary And no post is posted more then once every 3-7days.

I suggest that these two items be changed to "once every 7 calendar days".

This newsgroup may generate significant traffic. Limiting posts to once a
week, particularly when considering that the default auction duration in
most auction sites is 7 days, will help with traffic duplication.

> 6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be collected.

This is something that should be discussed a bit. By law in Texas anything
over 2-3 sales, I believe, means you are not a casual seller and you're
supposed to start collecting sales tax after that. ??

>                3.(FAC) For Auction: Closing

Question to the masses:  should we have FAX: For auction: cancelled?

Juan

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:22:02 GMT, "Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote:

>> 6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be collected.
>
>This is something that should be discussed a bit. By law in Texas anything
>over 2-3 sales, I believe, means you are not a casual seller and you're
>supposed to start collecting sales tax after that. ??
>
Is this rule designed to keep down the noise from those who actually
have a business auctioning things on ebay? If so, I think that's good
because without some rule of this nature the group would become like a
jobs news group and those are horrible. You can't find the one true
individual who needs a receptionist because their post is lost in the
head hunter posts. What other way could this be controlled if not by
the "sales tax" rule? If Jaun is correct, you'd need another measure
in place.

mama

On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:41:48 -0600, "Flogodino" <fogo@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I am against this! Not one entity in the entire USENET world has a local
>auction NG. 

Just because no one else has done it is no reason we shouldn't if it
is determined to be what we want, don't you agree?

>It's ridiculous. There are sales and there are best offers.
>Auctions are for eBay, Yahoo and Amazon. As for local auctions, which I have
>yet to see one yet. 

I take it you mean you have yet to see a real, live, local auction
posted in dfw.forsale? As to local auction houses where one might hold
an estate auction, there are many good ones around the area...

>They can be placed in dfw.forsale per the charter.

True. Real, live, local auctions can be advertised in dfw.forsale.

>
>Main reason I vote no. The eBay auction would have to say "Will only sell to
>DFW residents." Come on. Who is going to do that? Lets get real here.


I have several items I'd like to sell at auction that will not ship
well or easily. If someone outside the area wanted to buy such items
and could arrange the shipping to their satisfaction, sure, I'd sell
to them, but it would be easier by far to sell these items to locals
who can come pick up these kinds of items.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwillis@airmail.net

"Good taste is what pops up
when the imagination dies."
-Frank McCourt

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 06:22:02 GMT, "Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote:

>
>"Erik Alvar" <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote in message
>news:o4vn8.3144$ub3.3085@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
>>         2.Items for auction may be posted twice every week (3-7
>days),under
>> the following guidelines.
>>
>>              1.While it remains unsold, as long as the re-posting is
>> temporary And no post is posted more then once every 3-7days.
>
>I suggest that these two items be changed to "once every 7 calendar days".
>
>This newsgroup may generate significant traffic. Limiting posts to once a
>week, particularly when considering that the default auction duration in
>most auction sites is 7 days, will help with traffic duplication.
>
>> 6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be collected.
>
>This is something that should be discussed a bit. By law in Texas anything
>over 2-3 sales, I believe, means you are not a casual seller and you're
>supposed to start collecting sales tax after that. ??

Does this mean that if you hold a garage sale and sell more than two
or three items, you are required to collect sales tax? What is the
difference between holding a garage sale at your house and selling the
exact same items over the Internet on eBay? Only the venue has
changed. Same items and possibly the same people involved in the sale
(potentially the buyer and seller could be the same hypothetical
people). Why should sales tax be collected in these circumstances?


>
>>                3.(FAC) For Auction: Closing
>
>Question to the masses:  should we have FAX: For auction: cancelled?
>
>Juan
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwillis@airmail.net

"Good taste is what pops up
when the imagination dies."
-Frank McCourt

In dfw.internet.providers Erik Alvar <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote:
>    [Follow ups set to dfw.usenet.config - please confine your replies to
> that newsgroup]
> 
>    3/24/02:  I've compiled a list of changes that appeared to be most
> agreeable by the conversation of the past week.

I still think it'd be better to change the charter for dfw.forsale, after
all the definition of an auction is "A sale of an item to the highest
bidder". Can you tell me the ratio of auction traffic to the rest of
the traffic in dfw.forsale?

Regards
Nigel

"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:E55ED2B76CAA577E.D338404202F34E70.F2F065CBD85BBDFF@lp.airnews.net...
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:41:48 -0600, "Flogodino" <fogo@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Main reason I vote no. The eBay auction would have to say "Will only sell
to
> >DFW residents." Come on. Who is going to do that? Lets get real here.
>
>
> I have several items I'd like to sell at auction that will not ship
> well or easily. If someone outside the area wanted to buy such items
> and could arrange the shipping to their satisfaction, sure, I'd sell
> to them, but it would be easier by far to sell these items to locals
> who can come pick up these kinds of items.

Then post - Piano for sale - best offer.

Same result, without creating a kingdom of Ebay spam in the dfw hierarchy.

Venger

"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:BBF9DB648F5D15C1.27E27AB761D1F4AC.75DF68CDA5FFDEE1@lp.airnews.net...
> Does this mean that if you hold a garage sale and sell more than two
> or three items, you are required to collect sales tax? What is the
> difference between holding a garage sale at your house and selling the
> exact same items over the Internet on eBay? Only the venue has
> changed. Same items and possibly the same people involved in the sale
> (potentially the buyer and seller could be the same hypothetical
> people). Why should sales tax be collected in these circumstances?

I'm really not interested in discussing the merits of the law in Texas
regarding sales tax  Whether or not it applies to garage sales, I don't
know. Either way, garage sales are not auctions and would not belong in the
proposed newsgroup, but rather in dfw.forsale.

Juan

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:17 GMT, "Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:

>Then post - Piano for sale - best offer.
>
>Same result, without creating a kingdom of Ebay spam in the dfw hierarchy.
>
but what if the piano is listed on eBay? The best newsgroup offer
might not be the "best offer". I think some of us are missing the
point here. This group would keep this stuff out of dfw.forsale and
honestly, given the binary groups bandwidth sucking ability, I don't
think a text based group like this will be a drop in the proverbial
bucket of waste. I don't intend to frequent the new news group but it
certainly appears that others want it so why not? As for the arguement
"nopbody else has a local auction group" since when does DFW only do
things others have done before? If they want an auction group, let
them have one. 

mama

>
>

I don't see why some are so opposed to dfw.auctions what harm does it do to
create the new group?
I'm not trying to troll or flame it just seems if you didn't like the new
group you just wouldn't use it.

"Erik Alvar" <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote in message
news:o4vn8.3144$ub3.3085@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>     [Follow ups set to dfw.usenet.config - please confine your replies to
> that newsgroup]
>
>     3/24/02:  I've compiled a list of changes that appeared to be most
> agreeable by the conversation of the past week.
>
>     The primary changes have been to change the name from
> dfw.forsale.auction to dfw.auctions.  Additionally I've changed the
wording
> of section 7 regarding what is not allowed in a dfw.auctions newsgroup,
> should it be adopted.
>
>     I want to thank everyone for the constructive criticism.  3 years ago
> when I initially proposed this, the flames I received were enough to make
me
> drop the issue and it eventually died.  That has not been the case this
time
> around.
>
>     E
>
> ------------------------------------
>     I originally posted this almost three years ago.  I'd like to open
> discussion again, as it would appear that the need for an appropriate ebay
> forum is necessary.
>     Please note that the @hotmail address is still valid, but you'll get a
> quicker response by emailing me at:  ealvar @ netzero . net
>     Thanks,
>     E
> ------------------------------------
> I'd like to open up a discussion on the creation of a new dfw.*
> newsgroup that will be for 'auction' items only.  Basically this group
will
> be your forum for posting links to auction web sites.  However, auctions
> WILL NOT take place in this group.
>
>     The reason?  Personally I think that online auction posts are out of
the
> realm of dfw.forsale.  Why?  They don't comply with the original charter
of
> dfw.forsale.  Excerpted from the dfw.forsale charter:
>
>     "Links to Commercial Auction sites are not permitted"
>
>     Also, in the dfw.forsale FAQ, it clearly prohibits auctions
> (http://www.cirr.com/dfw/faqs/dfw.forsale.html)
>
>     So, why a new newsgroup for auctions?  Simply put, there is a need to
> have a forum for folks who wish to auction items at online auction sites,
> advertise these auctions, and announce the closing of an auction.  There's
> also a need to remove these posts from dfw.forsale, as they're off topic
and
> generate a lot of flames.
>
>     So, here's your chance to express your feelings on this topic.
>
>     Ultimately I think this will benefit all frequent readers of the dfw.*
> Usenet hierarchy.
>
>     After a week or so of discussion I will take this to the RFV (Request
> For Vote) stage to see if there is enough support to create this
newsgroup.
>
>     Thanks for your time.
>
>     Erik Alvar
>
> ealvar@hotmail.com
>
> PROPOSED CHARTER FOR DFW.AUCTIONS
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> For your newsgroups file:
>
> dfw.auctions
>      Things for auction in the Dallas/Ft.Worth Area {local only}
>
> CHARTER
>
> Area of Coverage of dfw.auctions
>
>      This newsgroup is for non-commercial advertisements of goods and
> services for auction exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding
> Areas.
>
>      dfw.auctions is an unmoderated newsgroup.
>
> Intended Use of dfw.auctions
>
>         1.Articles posted in dfw.auctions should be one-time
> announcements, not recurring advertisements. Recurring ads should be on
web
> pages then make a one-time announcement about the location of the page.
>
>         2.Items for auction may be posted twice every week (3-7
days),under
> the following guidelines.
>
>              1.While it remains unsold, as long as the re-posting is
> temporary And no post is posted more then once every 3-7days.
>
>              2.For Auction posts may be followed up by the author with a
> 'Sold' post (indicating the item has been sold) and ONE post indicating
that
> the auction is closing THAT day (i.e. the author will not post more than
> once about the ending of an auction).  The author will NOT post 'status
> reports' indicating the current price of an item.  Again, this is an
auction
> announcement newsgroup, not a forum for actual auctions!
>
>         3.Non commercial postings only. dfw.auctions is restricted to
> individuals auctions. This is not a commercial newsgroup.
>           Commercial includes by definition but not limited to:
>              1.Home based business such as Amway distribution.
>              2.Weekly garage sales.
>              3.Repeated going out of business sales.
>              4.Repetitive selling of the same items, leading to believe
you
> have a never ending supply from a distribution source.
>              5.Store Sales, large and small including home based computer
> sales.
>              6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be
> collected.
>
>         4.This is a for auction newsgroup, and discussion is not allowed
> other then requesting information for a product. It is suggested a valid
> email address be posted for contact information.
>
>         5.Binaries. This is not a binaries group. Do not post executable,
> sound files, image files, etc. in dfw.auctions.
>
>         6.Posts of the following are allowed and should contain in the
> Subject line only the following designations as to the type of post with a
> full description of what is being auctioned to allow for filtering of
> unwanted messages.
>              1.(FA) For Auction
>                Local Auction announcements only for the dfw Area. Items
> available at an Auction, or Auction announcements. Links to Commercial
> Auction sites are permitted. No Public Auctions shall be held in this
> newsgroup.  Only references to items at auction sites are permitted.  Do
NOT
> conduct auctions in this newsgroup.
>                2.(FAS) For Auction: Sold
>                 Each auction announcement should be followed up with ONE
> notice that the auction is now closed.
>                3.(FAC) For Auction: Closing
>                 Each auction announcement CAN be followed up with NO MORE
> THAN ONE notice that the auction is closing THAT DAY.  The author should
> refrain from FAC posts other than the closing date of the auction.
>
> Topics inappropriate for in dfw.auctions
>
>      The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As
> many smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
> per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation of
any
> of the following abuses:
>
>         1."Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes.
> Such schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of bandwidth
> is the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
> activity was left unchecked.
>
>         2.Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64.
>
>         3.MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content-
> encoding other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading
> Usenet do not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to
read
> to interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a plain
> text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
HTML
> for the Web.
>
>         4."spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's.
>
>         5."test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup.
>
>         6.Excessively multiple-posted articles.
>
>         7.Articles cross-posted to *any* other newsgroups
>
>         8.Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro
> Area.
>
>         9.Commercial ads, posts, or advertisements, including URL links to
> such.
>
>        10.Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the
> group.
>
> This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> article posted in the dfw.auctions newsgroup which does not have
> particular relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a
> relevant dfw.* charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to
the
> posters news administrators for dfw.auctions charter violations.
>
>
> Article Format
>
>         1.. Articles posted to dfw.auctions MUST be flat-ASCII. This
> means:
>              1.No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64.
>              2.No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the
> simplest text-only newsreader.
>              3.No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable.
>              4.No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of
> the post.
>
>         2.Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be
> made available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file posted.
>
>         3.Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid"
> domain is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition
> USENET newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to
> be anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.auctions. Post this
> material elsewhere.
>
>         4.ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers.
Nor
> should any attempts, execept minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
> origins of the posting.
>
>         5.Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:"
> header with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line
SHOULD
> be adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or replacing
> this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article was
> injected.
>
>      Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in
an
> article being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized
> moderation device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles
> cross-posted to other groups and dfw.auctions must still follow the
> criteria of dfw.auctions and be subject to these rules.
>
> Ending Statement.
>
> Questions can be posted to the group if you are just unsure and want to
know
> before doing something.
>
>
>
>
>

Precisely. That no one else has done it before is not an argument.

"Buttugly" <cantspamme@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:uGIn8.124208$q2.13433@sccrnsc01...
> I don't see why some are so opposed to dfw.auctions what harm does it do
to
> create the new group?
> I'm not trying to troll or flame it just seems if you didn't like the new
> group you just wouldn't use it.
>
> "Erik Alvar" <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote in message
> news:o4vn8.3144$ub3.3085@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >     [Follow ups set to dfw.usenet.config - please confine your replies
to
> > that newsgroup]
> >
> >     3/24/02:  I've compiled a list of changes that appeared to be most
> > agreeable by the conversation of the past week.
> >
> >     The primary changes have been to change the name from
> > dfw.forsale.auction to dfw.auctions.  Additionally I've changed the
> wording
> > of section 7 regarding what is not allowed in a dfw.auctions newsgroup,
> > should it be adopted.
> >
> >     I want to thank everyone for the constructive criticism.  3 years
ago
> > when I initially proposed this, the flames I received were enough to
make
> me
> > drop the issue and it eventually died.  That has not been the case this
> time
> > around.
> >
> >     E
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >     I originally posted this almost three years ago.  I'd like to open
> > discussion again, as it would appear that the need for an appropriate
ebay
> > forum is necessary.
> >     Please note that the @hotmail address is still valid, but you'll get
a
> > quicker response by emailing me at:  ealvar @ netzero . net
> >     Thanks,
> >     E
> > ------------------------------------
> > I'd like to open up a discussion on the creation of a new dfw.*
> > newsgroup that will be for 'auction' items only.  Basically this group
> will
> > be your forum for posting links to auction web sites.  However, auctions
> > WILL NOT take place in this group.
> >
> >     The reason?  Personally I think that online auction posts are out of
> the
> > realm of dfw.forsale.  Why?  They don't comply with the original charter
> of
> > dfw.forsale.  Excerpted from the dfw.forsale charter:
> >
> >     "Links to Commercial Auction sites are not permitted"
> >
> >     Also, in the dfw.forsale FAQ, it clearly prohibits auctions
> > (http://www.cirr.com/dfw/faqs/dfw.forsale.html)
> >
> >     So, why a new newsgroup for auctions?  Simply put, there is a need
to
> > have a forum for folks who wish to auction items at online auction
sites,
> > advertise these auctions, and announce the closing of an auction.
There's
> > also a need to remove these posts from dfw.forsale, as they're off topic
> and
> > generate a lot of flames.
> >
> >     So, here's your chance to express your feelings on this topic.
> >
> >     Ultimately I think this will benefit all frequent readers of the
dfw.*
> > Usenet hierarchy.
> >
> >     After a week or so of discussion I will take this to the RFV
(Request
> > For Vote) stage to see if there is enough support to create this
> newsgroup.
> >
> >     Thanks for your time.
> >
> >     Erik Alvar
> >
> > ealvar@hotmail.com
> >
> > PROPOSED CHARTER FOR DFW.AUCTIONS
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----
> >
> > For your newsgroups file:
> >
> > dfw.auctions
> >      Things for auction in the Dallas/Ft.Worth Area {local only}
> >
> > CHARTER
> >
> > Area of Coverage of dfw.auctions
> >
> >      This newsgroup is for non-commercial advertisements of goods and
> > services for auction exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and
surrounding
> > Areas.
> >
> >      dfw.auctions is an unmoderated newsgroup.
> >
> > Intended Use of dfw.auctions
> >
> >         1.Articles posted in dfw.auctions should be one-time
> > announcements, not recurring advertisements. Recurring ads should be on
> web
> > pages then make a one-time announcement about the location of the page.
> >
> >         2.Items for auction may be posted twice every week (3-7
> days),under
> > the following guidelines.
> >
> >              1.While it remains unsold, as long as the re-posting is
> > temporary And no post is posted more then once every 3-7days.
> >
> >              2.For Auction posts may be followed up by the author with a
> > 'Sold' post (indicating the item has been sold) and ONE post indicating
> that
> > the auction is closing THAT day (i.e. the author will not post more than
> > once about the ending of an auction).  The author will NOT post 'status
> > reports' indicating the current price of an item.  Again, this is an
> auction
> > announcement newsgroup, not a forum for actual auctions!
> >
> >         3.Non commercial postings only. dfw.auctions is restricted to
> > individuals auctions. This is not a commercial newsgroup.
> >           Commercial includes by definition but not limited to:
> >              1.Home based business such as Amway distribution.
> >              2.Weekly garage sales.
> >              3.Repeated going out of business sales.
> >              4.Repetitive selling of the same items, leading to believe
> you
> > have a never ending supply from a distribution source.
> >              5.Store Sales, large and small including home based
computer
> > sales.
> >              6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be
> > collected.
> >
> >         4.This is a for auction newsgroup, and discussion is not allowed
> > other then requesting information for a product. It is suggested a valid
> > email address be posted for contact information.
> >
> >         5.Binaries. This is not a binaries group. Do not post
executable,
> > sound files, image files, etc. in dfw.auctions.
> >
> >         6.Posts of the following are allowed and should contain in the
> > Subject line only the following designations as to the type of post with
a
> > full description of what is being auctioned to allow for filtering of
> > unwanted messages.
> >              1.(FA) For Auction
> >                Local Auction announcements only for the dfw Area. Items
> > available at an Auction, or Auction announcements. Links to Commercial
> > Auction sites are permitted. No Public Auctions shall be held in this
> > newsgroup.  Only references to items at auction sites are permitted.  Do
> NOT
> > conduct auctions in this newsgroup.
> >                2.(FAS) For Auction: Sold
> >                 Each auction announcement should be followed up with ONE
> > notice that the auction is now closed.
> >                3.(FAC) For Auction: Closing
> >                 Each auction announcement CAN be followed up with NO
MORE
> > THAN ONE notice that the auction is closing THAT DAY.  The author should
> > refrain from FAC posts other than the closing date of the auction.
> >
> > Topics inappropriate for in dfw.auctions
> >
> >      The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As
> > many smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by
paying
> > per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation of
> any
> > of the following abuses:
> >
> >         1."Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi
schemes.
> > Such schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of
bandwidth
> > is the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
> > activity was left unchecked.
> >
> >         2.Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64.
> >
> >         3.MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a
content-
> > encoding other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading
> > Usenet do not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to
> read
> > to interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a
plain
> > text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
> HTML
> > for the Web.
> >
> >         4."spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's.
> >
> >         5."test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup.
> >
> >         6.Excessively multiple-posted articles.
> >
> >         7.Articles cross-posted to *any* other newsgroups
> >
> >         8.Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW
Metro
> > Area.
> >
> >         9.Commercial ads, posts, or advertisements, including URL links
to
> > such.
> >
> >        10.Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in
the
> > group.
> >
> > This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> > article posted in the dfw.auctions newsgroup which does not have
> > particular relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of
a
> > relevant dfw.* charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to
> the
> > posters news administrators for dfw.auctions charter violations.
> >
> >
> > Article Format
> >
> >         1.. Articles posted to dfw.auctions MUST be flat-ASCII. This
> > means:
> >              1.No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64.
> >              2.No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the
> > simplest text-only newsreader.
> >              3.No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable.
> >              4.No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part
of
> > the post.
> >
> >         2.Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD
be
> > made available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file
posted.
> >
> >         3.Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid"
> > domain is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition
> > USENET newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs
to
> > be anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.auctions. Post this
> > material elsewhere.
> >
> >         4.ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers.
> Nor
> > should any attempts, execept minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
> > origins of the posting.
> >
> >         5.Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:"
> > header with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line
> SHOULD
> > be adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or
replacing
> > this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article
was
> > injected.
> >
> >      Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in
> an
> > article being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized
> > moderation device (human or otherwise) for the group in question.
Articles
> > cross-posted to other groups and dfw.auctions must still follow the
> > criteria of dfw.auctions and be subject to these rules.
> >
> > Ending Statement.
> >
> > Questions can be posted to the group if you are just unsure and want to
> know
> > before doing something.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"L. Maurer" <bounce@news.airnews.net> wrote in message
news:F41CC61280E94148.8798B42B3F4E7AF0.FD172DA5BC186537@lp.airnews.net...
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:17 GMT, "Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Then post - Piano for sale - best offer.
> >
> >Same result, without creating a kingdom of Ebay spam in the dfw
hierarchy.
>
> but what if the piano is listed on eBay?

Then that's where it OUGHT to be. This new group is the equivalent of
planting telephone poles solely to have "Lose weight fast" posters tacked to
them.

> The best newsgroup offer might not be the "best offer".

Then keep in on Ebay. There is nothing about the auction that makes it
pertinent to the dfw newsgroup hierarchy. The seller is here? So what? If
I'm in New York and selling something on Ebay, my potential buyer may be in
Dallas, but that makes it no more apropos for posting it in dfw.auctions
than having the seller here. If you are auctioning on Ebay, KEEP it on ebay.

> I think some of us are missing the
> point here. This group would keep this stuff out of dfw.forsale

The dfw.forsale charter keeps this stuff out of dfw.forsale.

> and
> honestly, given the binary groups bandwidth sucking ability, I don't
> think a text based group like this will be a drop in the proverbial
> bucket of waste.

A small bucket of stool is still a bucket of stool.

> I don't intend to frequent the new news group

Exactly. NOBODY is gonna frequent this newsgroup.

Imagine the wasteland of information this group is - header after header of
redundant auction postings. Who wants to read that? Someone buying
something? Why would they want to limit themselves to only those items found
in the dfw.auctions group? It won't contain all the dfw auctions on Ebay,
and won't contain all the auctions in their area of interest. People post in
dfw.forsale because they know that people perusing the group are interesting
in BUYING things in that group. Who is gonna go "I want to buy a <whatever>,
let me go see who in Dallas is auctioning them". Huh? The logic of use of
this group does not follow. The logic of posting in dfw.forsale is to get
attention for an auction - not for any great service to the dfw community at
large.

> but it
> certainly appears that others want it so why not? As for the arguement
> "nopbody else has a local auction group" since when does DFW only do
> things others have done before? If they want an auction group, let
> them have one.

Then why is this process here at all?

Venger

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:26:00 GMT, "Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote:

>
>"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
>news:BBF9DB648F5D15C1.27E27AB761D1F4AC.75DF68CDA5FFDEE1@lp.airnews.net...
>> Does this mean that if you hold a garage sale and sell more than two
>> or three items, you are required to collect sales tax? What is the
>> difference between holding a garage sale at your house and selling the
>> exact same items over the Internet on eBay? Only the venue has
>> changed. Same items and possibly the same people involved in the sale
>> (potentially the buyer and seller could be the same hypothetical
>> people). Why should sales tax be collected in these circumstances?
>
>I'm really not interested in discussing the merits of the law in Texas
>regarding sales tax 

Many of the laws in Texas have very little merit.

> Whether or not it applies to garage sales, I don't
>know. Either way, garage sales are not auctions and would not belong in the
>proposed newsgroup, but rather in dfw.forsale.

Ah, but my point was (aside from the sales tax red herring) that your
garage sale could be done via online auction instead of in front of
your house, in which case it would be apropos to the proposed DFW
auction group, don't you think? 

>
>Juan
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwillis@airmail.net

"Good taste is what pops up
when the imagination dies."
-Frank McCourt

"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:D0B1D39B7E29B7D3.1FDB6D2D5BC12E18.42B14124A4C38F4C@lp.airnews.net...
>
> Ah, but my point was (aside from the sales tax red herring) that your
> garage sale could be done via online auction instead of in front of
> your house, in which case it would be apropos to the proposed DFW
> auction group, don't you think?

I'm sure there are people masochistic enough to try something like that. I
would think Darwin's law would take of them in short order.

But, if you want to sell all the stuff in your garage on an online auction,
so be it.

"Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:HtOn8.254264$uv5.22293481@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
> Then that's where it OUGHT to be. This new group is the equivalent of
> planting telephone poles solely to have "Lose weight fast" posters tacked
to
> them.

That's basically what happens in dfw.forsale too. Of course, the fact that
there are online classified web sites available all over the place does not
preclude that items for sale should be posted in dfw.forsale if the seller
is from the DFW area.

In other words, your argument doesn't hold water.

> Then keep in on Ebay. There is nothing about the auction that makes it
> pertinent to the dfw newsgroup hierarchy.

Seller is in DFW area. Sellers wishes to advertise the auction to buyers in
the DFW area because seller believes that local buyers will be prone to
participate. Ergo, the auction is pertinent to the dfw newsgroup hierarchy.

What is it about this that you don't understand?

> The dfw.forsale charter keeps this stuff out of dfw.forsale.

No, it does not. The only thing it keeps out is the -link- to eBay,
something which is easily circumvented with a URL to some page that has the
eBay links.

> Exactly. NOBODY is gonna frequent this newsgroup.

So don't. Problem solved.

> Why would they want to limit themselves to only those items found
> in the dfw.auctions group?

Because for a great many number of items available on eBay, it makes sense
to buy locally so as to avoid shipping charges.

Because it's harder to get screwed on an auction if you can go pay locally
and receive the goods at the same time.

Because auctions are no different than sales, other than the item goes to
the highest bidder. It is still a sale and putting together local bidders
and local sellers in dfw.auctions has no less merit than putting together
local buyers and local sellers in dfw.forsale.

> People post in
> dfw.forsale because they know that people perusing the group are
interesting
> in BUYING things in that group.

This is getting absurd. Are you suggesting that people looking in auctions
are NOT looking to BUY things?

> Who is gonna go "I want to buy a <whatever>,
> let me go see who in Dallas is auctioning them".

I do. All the time. On a great many sites, not just eBay. Why? Because many
of the things I would like to buy are not available for outright sale.

It's very simple, if you are not interested in auctions, DON'T SUBSCRIBE to
dfw.auctions. If you are, then do so. End of story!

Juan

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:29:21 GMT, "Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote:

>
>"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
>news:D0B1D39B7E29B7D3.1FDB6D2D5BC12E18.42B14124A4C38F4C@lp.airnews.net...
>>
>> Ah, but my point was (aside from the sales tax red herring) that your
>> garage sale could be done via online auction instead of in front of
>> your house, in which case it would be apropos to the proposed DFW
>> auction group, don't you think?
>
>I'm sure there are people masochistic enough to try something like that. I
>would think Darwin's law would take of them in short order.
>
>But, if you want to sell all the stuff in your garage on an online auction,
>so be it.
>

I'm currently engaged in a similar endeavor, although everything I'm
trying to thin out isn't currently in my garage. It took years to
accumulate this stuff. I assume it will take a while to get rid of it
as well. Problem is I'm unwilling to sell it at 'garage sale' prices.
In the past I've tried stating a price and posting some stuff in
appropriate newsgroups. Some sold, some didn't. eBay has lots of
traffic across it which makes it a good place to sell some items. It
isn't as good for selling other items, such as the car I recently sold
by posting it on dfw.forsale. The '40 Ford I referenced earlier is an
example of something that would sell on eBay but needs a local buyer.
If a distant buyer wanted to arrange transport I'd welcome their bids
as well, but a local DFW buyer would be my preference, which is why
stuff like this could stand a local venue to advertise the eBay
auctions. 

Don't get me wrong, I too think it is kind of redundant to list
something on eBay and then post the auction on newsgroups in an effort
to stimulate its sale. It might help. It might not. Who can say at
this point as it is all speculation? Why not try the experiment and
find out? You've already stated you think it is a waste of time, ans
from that I infer you would never visit such a group. That is as it
should be since no one will be forced to participate.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwillis@airmail.net

"Good taste is what pops up
when the imagination dies."
-Frank McCourt

"John Willis" <jdwillis@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:715A0D7AA660F320.7BBCE0298AABC6B7.99AA299EEB3A8EB4@lp.airnews.net...
>
> I'm currently engaged in a similar endeavor, although everything I'm
> trying to thin out isn't currently in my garage. It took years to
> accumulate this stuff. I assume it will take a while to get rid of it
> as well. Problem is I'm unwilling to sell it at 'garage sale' prices.
> In the past I've tried stating a price and posting some stuff in
> appropriate newsgroups. Some sold, some didn't. eBay has lots of
> traffic across it which makes it a good place to sell some items. It
> isn't as good for selling other items, such as the car I recently sold
> by posting it on dfw.forsale. The '40 Ford I referenced earlier is an
> example of something that would sell on eBay but needs a local buyer.
> If a distant buyer wanted to arrange transport I'd welcome their bids
> as well, but a local DFW buyer would be my preference, which is why
> stuff like this could stand a local venue to advertise the eBay
> auctions.

And this is precisely one of the reasons why a dfw.auctions newsgroup is a
good idea. It would fit your needs perfectly.

> Don't get me wrong, I too think it is kind of redundant to list
> something on eBay and then post the auction on newsgroups in an effort
> to stimulate its sale. It might help. It might not. Who can say at
> this point as it is all speculation?

I can tell you that ocassionally it works great for me. There are some types
of items that don't sell well long distance, eBay or not. Additionally, it
would be one way of helping prevent the auction from not gaining any
attention. The only option to help get people to the auction is to use the
feature services on eBay, which IMO are obscenely overpriced. Posting it on
dfw.auctions would gain attention for it and would do so in the local
community, where people are more likely to bid if they are interested in the
item.

> Why not try the experiment and
> find out? You've already stated you think it is a waste of time, ans
> from that I infer you would never visit such a group. That is as it
> should be since no one will be forced to participate.

I never said it would be a waste of time. Quite the contrary. I would use
the newsgroup.

Juan

"Frank Durda IV" <uhclem.apr02@nemesis.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:GtK8vx.1MA0@nemesis.lonestar.org...
>
> If you could keep such traffic contained to a group (unlikely), holding
the
> auctions there and doing the entire thing there (improbable), you would
> have a stronger case.  Right now you are just advocating a place to post
> "Please bid on or see my collection of 20th century telegraph poles now
> being auctioned on Zbay at http//not.a.real.site".  That activity is
instantly
> commercial (because telling the difference between someone selling the
one-off
> thing and a local company selling three excess diesel generators would be
> difficult, if not impossible), and there really is no place for it
anywhere
> in dfw.*, nor will there be.

The logic behind this statement is flawed. First of all, there is plenty of
self-policing activity around here (from the gentle reminder to the neo-Nazi
type) that it is unlikely that commercial posts will last for long. A simple
glance at an eBay auction immediately tells you if someone is a commercial
seller or not, just look at the eBay rating of the seller. And after a few
complaints land a commercial seller in trouble with eBay, word will get
around. Most people who do extensive business using mediums like eBay don't
want to jeopardize a high rating that has taken several months or years to
develop and nurture.

It bothers me as well that there are people who still, in this day and age,
believe they have the right to make statements such as  "nor will there be."
No such authority has been granted or delegated to anyone. Some people seem
to forget that the newsgroups are meant to serve the people who use them,
and like everything else on the net, they evolve. Trying to stifle that
natural evolution with tactics such as this usually results in some pretty
nasty backlashes.

> Keeping the North Texas limits on discussion in any proposed group of this
> sort will also be difficult if you have constant references to out-of-area
> auction sites and such.  The dfw hierarchy is a geographically-limited
> hierarchy and will stay that way.

Nobody has so much as hinted as allowing posts for auctions that are out of
the area.

Juan

"Frank Durda IV" <uhclem.apr02@nemesis.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:GtK8vx.1MA0@nemesis.lonestar.org...
> In dfw.internet.providers Erik Alvar <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote:
> :    The primary changes have been to change the name from
> : dfw.forsale.auction to dfw.auctions.  Additionally I've changed the
wording
> : of section 7 regarding what is not allowed in a dfw.auctions newsgroup,
> : should it be adopted.
>
> I somehow suspect that you haven't actually run this idea past the
hierarchy
> coordinator, because I can't recall dfw.* ever using a public vote (CFV)
to
> create or remove a group and dfw.* has been around the 1980s.  Instead, a
> group of the regions news server administrators have made these calls on
> what groups do and don't exist in dfw.* (or even on when the charters need
> changing) with the final word held by the hierarchy coordinator, whom the
> coordinators can depose (or at least spill food on him at the monthly
lunch)
> should he go off in left field.

Can I assume you are the administrator for airnews and will be giving the
dfw.auctions proposal the big thumbs down it deserves Frank?

Venger

But why are you so adamant about this?
It seems to me that if you think it's a really dumb idea you just wouldn't
use it, but you seem genuinely opposed to this group being created.
How could the creation of a new group affect you?
I'm not trying to flame or troll here, I just really really really don't
understand why you are so set on this group not being created.


> Imagine the wasteland of information this group is - header after header
of
> redundant auction postings. Who wants to read that? Someone buying
> something? Why would they want to limit themselves to only those items
found
> in the dfw.auctions group?
> Venger

"Frank Durda IV" <uhclem.apr02@nemesis.lonestar.org> wrote in message
news:GtK8vx.1MA0@nemesis.lonestar.org...
> In dfw.internet.providers Erik Alvar <ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote:
> :    The primary changes have been to change the name from
> : dfw.forsale.auction to dfw.auctions.  Additionally I've changed the
wording
> : of section 7 regarding what is not allowed in a dfw.auctions newsgroup,
> : should it be adopted.
>
> I'll point out that this is off-topic for dfw.internet.providers and I
have
> set followups accordingly.

    I prefaced my post with: "[Follow ups set to dfw.usenet.config - please
confine your replies to
that newsgroup]"

    The RFD was an announcement in the dfw.* groups that generate the most
discussion.  Follow-ups were already set to dfw.usenet.config in my original
announcement.  You appear to be the only person who's reply to the
announcement in dfw.internet.providers stayed in dfw.internet.providers.
That and you deliberately reset the follow-ups in your post to DFW.FORSALE
in addition to dfw.usenet.config.

    Additionally, per the dfw.internet.providers Charter:

    "Technical papers, reports and other materials of interest to a
significant number of the readers of dfw.internet.providers AND related to
the provision of Internet service in the area defined above, OR as a reply
or response to a discussion already in progress in dfw.internet.providers,
which should have met other criteria. Move drifting discussions to another
group with the use of the Followup-To: header."

    "Announcements of meetings, demonstrations, projects, forums and other
activity directly related to the technical aspects of Internet Provision or
Internet Service in the area defined above. This also includes summaries or
reviews of meetings/events from the same types of groups."

    Since the possibility of adding a new newsgroup to the dfw.* hierarchy
would directly affect DFW ISP's should they decide to add the group (in the
unlikely event that it should ever be created) I would think it is very
pertinent to dfw.internet.providers.  As previously stated, the follow-ups
were set to dfw.usenet.config.

> Second, I think you are making a mistake here.  If dfw.forsale cannot
> accomodate this activity, then there may be something wrong with the
activity
> you are trying to perform in a dfw.* group (more on this below).  If not,
> your special case of selling might need to be a group under dfw.forsale,
but
> not a new second-level dfw.* group.  Your first name selection above seems
> more appropriate in that it fits established hierarchies under dfw.*
rather
> than creating a new one.  However, part of your auction goal appears
fatal.
> Read on.

    As laid out by the dfw.forsale Charter and official FAQ, dfw.forsale
isn't INTENDED to accomodate these activities and in fact prohibits them.

    There is clearly precedence for the need of a forum that allows FA posts
(that are relevent), given the rather large volume of them, as well as the
bickering they inevitably cause.

<SNIP>

> I'll point out that the reason that the other group does not allow links
> to auction web sites is probably in keeping with the general use rules for
all
> dfw groups, that the group not become commercialized or tied to a
particular
> commerical organization.  That's why there is no dfw.eats.elfenix or
> dfw.internet.providers.flashnet.  For this activity, that might come to be
> Ebay or some other similar organization.  Regardless of who, the dfw.*
groups
> aren't meant for a daily stream of "visit my
site/store/shop/place-of-business"
> traffic (this is what web sites are for), and you will find that sentiment
> wired-into all the charters of all the dfw groups.  Trying to defeat this
> position within dfw.* by any mechanism (including trying to create a new
> group that allows commercial activity) will likely fail.

    There is only one group that actively has people selling items,
dfw.forsale.  The charter forbids FA posts except for a very few exceptions.
Individuals posting their auctions do not constitute commerical posting,
despit their possibly using a commercial tool such as Ebay, Yahoo, etc. to
sell those items.

    Where in the proposed charter does it allow "visit my
site/store/shop/place-of-business"?

    There are clearly enough people who don't want FA posts in dfw.forsale
to justify a CFD to discuss whether a new group is viable, or even needed.
That is my only interest at this point.

> :    Also, in the dfw.forsale FAQ, it clearly prohibits auctions
> : (http://www.cirr.com/dfw/faqs/dfw.forsale.html)
> :
> :    So, why a new newsgroup for auctions?  Simply put, there is a need to
> : have a forum for folks who wish to auction items at online auction
sites,
> : advertise these auctions, and announce the closing of an auction.
There's
> : also a need to remove these posts from dfw.forsale, as they're off topic
and
> : generate a lot of flames.
>
> If you could keep such traffic contained to a group (unlikely), holding
the
> auctions there and doing the entire thing there (improbable), you would
> have a stronger case.  Right now you are just advocating a place to post
> "Please bid on or see my collection of 20th century telegraph poles now
> being auctioned on Zbay at http//not.a.real.site".  That activity is
instantly
> commercial (because telling the difference between someone selling the
one-off
> thing and a local company selling three excess diesel generators would be
> difficult, if not impossible), and there really is no place for it
anywhere
> in dfw.*, nor will there be.
>
> If you feel that you must place ads on the Internet for whatever it is
that
> you or a corporation need to sell, put those ads on a web site somewhere
and
> don't put that material on USENET.  With a web site, at least someone
> requested the ads be sent to them.

    Frank, you've obviously not read the proposed charter:

    "3.Non commercial postings only. dfw.auctions is restricted to
individuals auctions. This is not a commercial newsgroup.
          Commercial includes by definition but not limited to:
             1.Home based business such as Amway distribution.
             2.Weekly garage sales.
             3.Repeated going out of business sales.
             4.Repetitive selling of the same items, leading to believe you
have a never ending supply from a distribution source.
             5.Store Sales, large and small including home based computer
sales.
             6.Any item offered for sale for which sales tax will be
collected."



> Keeping the North Texas limits on discussion in any proposed group of this
> sort will also be difficult if you have constant references to out-of-area
> auction sites and such.  The dfw hierarchy is a geographically-limited
> hierarchy and will stay that way.

    This is also prohibited, as indicated in the proposed charter:

    "8.Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro
Area."



> I somehow suspect that you haven't actually run this idea past the
hierarchy
> coordinator, because I can't recall dfw.* ever using a public vote (CFV)
to
> create or remove a group and dfw.* has been around the 1980s.  Instead, a
> group of the regions news server administrators have made these calls on
> what groups do and don't exist in dfw.* (or even on when the charters need
> changing) with the final word held by the hierarchy coordinator, whom the
> coordinators can depose (or at least spill food on him at the monthly
lunch)
> should he go off in left field.

    I've exchanged emails privately with both David and Eric.  I'm also
subscribed to the dfw news admins mailing list.

> If you can rework your proposal to drop all the commercial aspects, you
have
> a better chance of having such a group anywhere under dfw.* than what I
think
> your chances are right now.   However, if you do drop the commercial
aspects,
> them dfw.forsale becomes suitable.

    I think you need to re-read the proposal, or perhaps just read it
PERIOD.

> If you must have commerical tie-ins and out-of region traffic, I suggest
the
> alt.* hierarchy.

    Any and all commerical tie-ins and out-of-region traffic is strictly
forbidden in the proposed charter.

>
> That's just my opinion, but having written the framework that was
used/pinched
> in many of the charters for the dfw.* groups that exist today, I happen to
> know a little about the subject and what the dfw.* hierarchy is and isn't
> meant to be used for.

    Good, it's the framework that I borrowed when creating the proposed
charter.

    Please re-read the proposed charter.

    Thanks,

    E

> Frank Durda IV - only this address works:|"Like the HitchHikers Guide to
the
>    <uhclem.apr02%nemesis.lonestar.org>   | Galaxy, when the Internet is
>                                          | inaccurate, at least it can be
said
> This Anti-spam address expires Apr. 30th | to be definitively inaccurate."
> Copr. 2002, ask before reprinting.
>
>

Haven't you ever met someone who bases objections to proposals on personal
feelings towards the proponents of, rather than the merits of the proposal,
and then tries to convince others, unsuccesfully, that the opposite is the
case? :)

"Buttugly" <cantspamme@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:OISn8.113197$af7.60914@rwcrnsc53...
> But why are you so adamant about this?
> It seems to me that if you think it's a really dumb idea you just wouldn't
> use it, but you seem genuinely opposed to this group being created.
> How could the creation of a new group affect you?
> I'm not trying to flame or troll here, I just really really really don't
> understand why you are so set on this group not being created.
>
>
> > Imagine the wasteland of information this group is - header after header
> of
> > redundant auction postings. Who wants to read that? Someone buying
> > something? Why would they want to limit themselves to only those items
> found
> > in the dfw.auctions group?
> > Venger
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:25:39 GMT, "Erik Alvar"
<ealvar@spam0netzero.net> wrote:

>
>"Frank Durda IV" <uhclem.apr02@nemesis.lonestar.org> wrote

A word of advise.... when you see Frank post take everything he says
seriously and respectfully. He is one of the people who made your RFD
possible and for that matter, helped make UseNet possible. He just
happens to live in the dfw* area and we're fortunate to have his
input.

mama

"Buttugly" <cantspamme@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:OISn8.113197$af7.60914@rwcrnsc53...
> But why are you so adamant about this?

??? Should I just be indifferent? I'm fairly sure this was posted for
comments - they've got them.

> It seems to me that if you think it's a really dumb idea you just wouldn't
> use it, but you seem genuinely opposed to this group being created.

Because it's a guaranteed repository of Ebay detritus.

> How could the creation of a new group affect you?

That feed is affecting my Quake ping time...

The dfw hierarchy is there for a reason. Simply adding any damn fool thing
we please to it is a sure fire way to make a mess of it. Since you won't be
reading it, can we assume that dfw.insertnounhere is justified in it's own
creation?

> I'm not trying to flame or troll here, I just really really really don't
> understand why you are so set on this group not being created.

Because it's sorta dumb.

Venger

"Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote in message
news:CqSn8.108281$Yv2.33058@rwcrnsc54...
>
> > Keeping the North Texas limits on discussion in any proposed group of
this
> > sort will also be difficult if you have constant references to
out-of-area
> > auction sites and such.  The dfw hierarchy is a geographically-limited
> > hierarchy and will stay that way.
>
> Nobody has so much as hinted as allowing posts for auctions that are out
of
> the area.

Your auction takes place on a web site outside North Texas, and the likely
winner of your auction will be outside of North Texas. The only thing in
North Dallas is the seller - and the only dfw person to predominantly get
ANYTHING out of these auctions will be the seller, and most often not owing
at all to a dfw.auctions post.

The dfw.forsale group serves both buyers and sellers in dfw - not a select
few. The transaction is totally germaine to the dfw hierarchy and it's
intended purpose and audience.

Venger

I'll be glad when this dies so the group can get back to abnormal. Then in
about 2 years, someone else can bring the auction thing up again. We can
spend 3 weeks on it like always. Then go back to abnormal again.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 01:12:09 GMT, "Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com>
wrote:
>"Buttugly" <cantspamme@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> But why are you so adamant about this?
>
>??? Should I just be indifferent? I'm fairly sure this was posted for
>comments - they've got them.
>
>> It seems to me that if you think it's a really dumb idea you just wouldn't
>> use it, but you seem genuinely opposed to this group being created.
>
>Because it's a guaranteed repository of Ebay detritus.

In your opinion. eBay serves its function. It is very well suited to
some needs. I use it occasionally, both for buying and selling. I also
use dfw.forsale, both for buying and selling. If it were created I
would at least try the proposed group to see what it is good for. If
it fails to deliver what it should, I would stop looking at it, as,
I'm sure most others would if it fails to perform, in which case it
could be removed at some future date. Chalk it up as a learing
experience.

>
>> How could the creation of a new group affect you?
>
>That feed is affecting my Quake ping time...

Which, to quote you below, is sorta dumb........it is all in the eye
of the beholder, don't you think?

>
>The dfw hierarchy is there for a reason. Simply adding any damn fool thing
>we please to it is a sure fire way to make a mess of it. Since you won't be
>reading it, can we assume that dfw.insertnounhere is justified in it's own
>creation?

That is why creating a new group goes in a certain way, the custom was
created the way it is for a reason, to weed out the useless and silly
proposals.

>
>> I'm not trying to flame or troll here, I just really really really don't
>> understand why you are so set on this group not being created.
>
>Because it's sorta dumb.

Which, just like my quote of this above, is strictly opinion, this one
is yours, the other is mine. Neither is really true, just true for
each of us from our obviously very different perspectives.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Willis
jdwillis@airmail.net

"Good taste is what pops up
when the imagination dies."
-Frank McCourt

"> > How could the creation of a new group affect you?
>
> That feed is affecting my Quake ping time...
>
>
> Venger


;-)

"Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:xt9o8.105035$2q2.8897262@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
> Your auction takes place on a web site outside North Texas, and the likely
> winner of your auction will be outside of North Texas. The only thing in
> North Dallas is the seller - and the only dfw person to predominantly get
> ANYTHING out of these auctions will be the seller, and most often not
owing
> at all to a dfw.auctions post.

My experience tells me otherwise. You on the other hand are basing this
entire argument on speculation. This next statement of yours proves that
beyond any reasonable doubt.

> The dfw.forsale group serves both buyers and sellers in dfw - not a select
> few. The transaction is totally germaine to the dfw hierarchy and it's
> intended purpose and audience.

Would you care to share with us how exactly you know that every transaction
in dfw.forsale involves sellers AND buyers exclusively from the DFW area?
Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for this, I already know that
you can't possibly provide proof for this statement, but I'd be humored to
see what you'll say.

To be perfectly honest, I find it immensely amusing to hear someone imply
that they have personal knowledge of the locations of both parties in even a
fraction of transactions in dfw.forsale. :)

Juan

Juan.... as you continually point out.... you care nothing of this group
other than to perpetuate your own moronic ideals.....  get lost pond scum.
Find that rock you crawled out from under.


"Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote in message
news:PDco8.113876$Yv2.33618@rwcrnsc54...
> "Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xt9o8.105035$2q2.8897262@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> >
> > Your auction takes place on a web site outside North Texas, and the
likely
> > winner of your auction will be outside of North Texas. The only thing in
> > North Dallas is the seller - and the only dfw person to predominantly
get
> > ANYTHING out of these auctions will be the seller, and most often not
> owing
> > at all to a dfw.auctions post.
>
> My experience tells me otherwise. You on the other hand are basing this
> entire argument on speculation. This next statement of yours proves that
> beyond any reasonable doubt.
>
> > The dfw.forsale group serves both buyers and sellers in dfw - not a
select
> > few. The transaction is totally germaine to the dfw hierarchy and it's
> > intended purpose and audience.
>
> Would you care to share with us how exactly you know that every
transaction
> in dfw.forsale involves sellers AND buyers exclusively from the DFW area?
> Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for this, I already know that
> you can't possibly provide proof for this statement, but I'd be humored to
> see what you'll say.
>
> To be perfectly honest, I find it immensely amusing to hear someone imply
> that they have personal knowledge of the locations of both parties in even
a
> fraction of transactions in dfw.forsale. :)
>
> Juan
>
>
>

Lessee... I'll give you a 0.8 for that one, and only because you had to type
to communicate it. <g>

"igotdoo" <igotdoo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ua2n2s3mt2ho20@corp.supernews.com...
> Juan.... as you continually point out.... you care nothing of this group
> other than to perpetuate your own moronic ideals.....  get lost pond scum.
> Find that rock you crawled out from under.

>but what if the piano is listed on eBay? The best newsgroup offer
>might not be the "best offer". I think some of us are missing the
>point here. 

If the piano (or whatever) is for sale on eBay, is it even possible
for me to buy it by private bids to the seller?  (Assume for the
moment I don't like eBay for some reason, like I got burned by them
in a previous auction, and refuse to submit bids through them.
This is just a hypothetical example.)  I thought at that point eBay
would insist that you go through them to sell the item once it's
listed and then actually sold.

I thought www.ebay.com was the place to list items for sale on eBay.

					Gordon L. Burditt

"Gordon Burditt" <gordonb.27vii@sneaky.lerctr.org> wrote in message
news:583CD1D9B3A663B4.222DF4098744304C.DD7DB875868AB047@lp.airnews.net...
>
> If the piano (or whatever) is for sale on eBay, is it even possible
> for me to buy it by private bids to the seller?  (Assume for the
> moment I don't like eBay for some reason, like I got burned by them
> in a previous auction, and refuse to submit bids through them.
> This is just a hypothetical example.)  I thought at that point eBay
> would insist that you go through them to sell the item once it's
> listed and then actually sold.
>
> I thought www.ebay.com was the place to list items for sale on eBay.

eBay is not the only auction site on the planet, there are many,  many
others. And dfw.auction would not limit auctions to public ones. You could,
in theory, make it a private auction, conducted entirely by email.

eBay cannot force anyone to sell an item posted on eBay through them (some
people think they can, but in reality they cannot). You can cancel an
auction, though after bidding starts you're going to hurt your standing with
the eBay system if you don't go through to the end. You can also start an
auction that clearly states that you reserve the right to withdraw the item
at any time, for any reason. I've seen that many, many times, particularly
on eBay motors.

Juan

"Juan Jimenez" <bd5@bd5.com> wrote in message
news:PDco8.113876$Yv2.33618@rwcrnsc54...
> "Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
> news:xt9o8.105035$2q2.8897262@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> >
> > Your auction takes place on a web site outside North Texas, and the
likely
> > winner of your auction will be outside of North Texas. The only thing in
> > North Dallas is the seller - and the only dfw person to predominantly
get
> > ANYTHING out of these auctions will be the seller, and most often not
> owing
> > at all to a dfw.auctions post.
>
> My experience tells me otherwise. You on the other hand are basing this
> entire argument on speculation.

You misspelled "common sense". And MY experience, both in dfw.forsale for 6+
years AND on ebay, tells me different.

> > The dfw.forsale group serves both buyers and sellers in dfw - not a
select
> > few. The transaction is totally germaine to the dfw hierarchy and it's
> > intended purpose and audience.
>
> Would you care to share with us how exactly you know that every
transaction
> in dfw.forsale involves sellers AND buyers exclusively from the DFW area?

Well, we could use common sense, general observation, or if we wanted to be
backward and anal (read: Juanlike), we could examine the email and or
posting source of each item. Do you dispute that 99% of all transactions in
dfw.forsale involve buyers and sellers within 150 miles?

> Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for this

That's a shame.

> I already know that
> you can't possibly provide proof for this statement, but I'd be humored to
> see what you'll say.

I can provide not only anecdotal, common sense observation, but a way for
you to examine exactly who participates in the group per the charter rules.

> To be perfectly honest, I find it immensely amusing to hear someone imply
> that they have personal knowledge of the locations of both parties in even
a
> fraction of transactions in dfw.forsale. :)

Right, most transactions involve shipment of items outside DFW - dork.

Venger

"Buttugly" <cantspamme@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:5Kbo8.116563$ZR2.44639@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> "> > How could the creation of a new group affect you?
> >
> > That feed is affecting my Quake ping time...
> >
> >
> > Venger
>
>
> ;-)

Thanks for getting it...

Venger

"Venger" <Venger@augustmail.com> wrote in message
news:Q6Go8.120859$Gf.11398479@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
>
> You misspelled "common sense". And MY experience, both in dfw.forsale for
6+
> years AND on ebay, tells me different.

How many items have you sold on online auctions to local people because of
ads in dfw.forsale?

> Well, we could use common sense, general observation, or if we wanted to
be
> backward and anal (read: Juanlike), we could examine the email and or
> posting source of each item. Do you dispute that 99% of all transactions
in
> dfw.forsale involve buyers and sellers within 150 miles?

Of course I do, as it is patently absurd to make such an assertion based on
saliva.

> I can provide not only anecdotal, common sense observation...

Anecdotal evidence is like opinions. Everyone has them and 99% of them
stink.

Sorry, but you need to do a little more homework. I would think you would
have learned that in elementary school.

Juan