🚀 go-pugleaf

Someone might want to alert David V for his opinion about this proposed 
hierarchy change, just to ensure no conflict with higher level Usenet 
restrictions... though, in looking at dfw.jobs, I don't see how this 
could, except for linking to commercial sites.

David Vondrasek
david@cirr.com
dfw.* newsgroup Charters
http://www.cirr.com/dfw/
Please use dfw.usenet.config to discuss dfw.* use and abuse.

Nigel Reed wrote:

> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
> period on dfw.commercials.
> 
> Introduction:
> Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and wish
> to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
> dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
> 
> Hostile exchanges take place because those who abide by the dfw.forsale
> charter of non-commercial postings feel it unfair that others post their
> commercial messages there.
> 
> The idea is for small and home based business to post a message about their
> store or services and level the playing field for everyone.
> 
> Many people hate the idea of usenet going commercial, however it might be a
> sign of the times that it cannot remain in its virgin state.
> 
> Proposed charter for dfw.commercials
> 
> Area of Coverage of dfw.commercials
> 
>    This newsgroup is for commercial noticed of goods and services for sale
> exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding areas.
> 
>    dfw.commercials is an unmoderated newsgroup.
> 
> Intended Use of dfw.commercials
> 
>   1. Articles posted in dfw.commercial should be one-time announcements, not
>      recurring advertisements. Please restrict yourself to short messages with
>      follow ups to your website.
> 
>   2. You should not post within 30 days of your last message even if you
>      cancel that previous message.
> 
>   3. Postings should only be made my legitimate businesses. Please do not
>      advertise any of the following
> 
>      1. Garage sales
>      2. Repeated going out of business sales
>      3. Work from home schemes
>      
> 
>   4. This group is for one time posting of commercials. No discussion or
>      follow-up is allowed. Please direct comments and questions to original
>      poster.
> 
>   5. Binaries. This is not a binary group. Do not post executable, sound
>      files, images files, etc. in dfw.commercials
> 
>   6. Cross posting. Please do not cross post into our out of dfw.commercials.
> 
> Topics inappropriate for dfw.commercials.
> 
>   The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As many
>   smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
>   per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation
>   of any of the following abuses: 
> 
>   1.  "Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes. Such
>       schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of bandwidth is
>       the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
>       activity was left unchecked. 
> 
>   2.  Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64. 
> 
>   3.  MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content- encoding
>       other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading Usenet do
>       not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to read to
>       interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a plain
>       text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
>       HTML for the Web. 
> 
>   4.  "spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's. 
> 
>   5.  "test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup. 
> 
>   6.  Excessively multiple-posted articles. 
> 
>   7.  Cross posted articles.
> 
>   8.  Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro Area. 
> 
>   9.  Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the group. 
> 
> This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> article posted in the dfw.forsale newsgroup which does not have particular
> relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a relevant dfw.*
> charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to the posters news
> administrators for dfw.forsale charter violations. 
> 
> Article Format
> 
>   1. Articles posted to dfw.forsale MUST be flat-ASCII. This means: 
>     1. No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64. 
>     2. No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the simplest
>        text-only newsreader. 
>     3. No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable. 
>     4. No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of the post. 
> 
>   2. Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be made
>      available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file posted. 
> 
>   3. Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid" domain
>      is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition USENET
>      newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to be
>      anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.forsale. Post this material
>      elsewhere. 
> 
>   4. ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers. Nor
>      should any attempts, except minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
>      origins of the posting. 
> 
>   5. Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:" header
>      with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line SHOULD be
>      adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or replacing
>      this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article
>      was injected. 
> 
> Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in an article
> being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized moderation
> device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles cross-posted
> to other groups and dfw.forsale must still follow the criteria of dfw.forsale
> and be subject to these rules. 
> 
> Ending Statement.
> Questions can be posted to the dfw.general group if you are just unsure and
> want to know before doing something.
> 

Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote:
>This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
>period on dfw.commercials.
>
>Introduction:
>Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and wish
>to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
>dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
>
>Hostile exchanges take place because those who abide by the dfw.forsale
>charter of non-commercial postings feel it unfair that others post their
>commercial messages there.
>
>The idea is for small and home based business to post a message about their
>store or services and level the playing field for everyone.
>
>Many people hate the idea of usenet going commercial, however it might be a
>sign of the times that it cannot remain in its virgin state.
>
>Proposed charter for dfw.commercials
>
>Area of Coverage of dfw.commercials
>
>   This newsgroup is for commercial noticed of goods and services for sale
>exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding areas.

s/noticed/notices/

  I would explicitly add that sales via orders entered through a Web
interface are off topic by definition, since such a site is, by its
nature, not local to DFW.

  I really, really like the dfw.internet.providers charter's
definition of "North Texas."  (The charter is at
http://www.cirr.com/dfw/charters/dfw.internet.providers.html.)

  " ... roughly encompassing an area from the Louisiana and Oklahoma 
  borders to Eastland TX to the west and Hillsboro TX to the south.

  This includes (with slight variances to accommodate local dialing 
  areas): Wichita Falls, Archer City, Graham, Breckenridge, Eastland, 
  Stephenville, Glen Rose, Cleburne, Hillsboro, Corsicana, Athens, 
  Jacksonville, Henderson, Joaquin, and all cities in Texas north or 
  east of the listed cities. This includes the Fort Worth and Dallas 
  metropolitan area."

  I suggest adopting the above definition.

>   dfw.commercials is an unmoderated newsgroup.
>
>Intended Use of dfw.commercials
>
>  1. Articles posted in dfw.commercial should be one-time announcements, not
>     recurring advertisements. Please restrict yourself to short messages with
>     follow ups to your website.

 s/short/short (100 lines or less)
 s/follow ups/a pointer/  OR 
 s/follow ups to your website/a URL referencing you Web site./
  We do "followups" in the newsgroups.


>  2. You should not post within 30 days of your last message even if you
>     cancel that previous message.

  I agree with the suggested change that mesasges with essentially the
same content can't be posted more than once every "N" days.  I'd like
to suggest "N" days change to "once a month".

>  3. Postings should only be made my legitimate businesses. Please do not
>     advertise any of the following

 s/my/by/

>     1. Garage sales
>     2. Repeated going out of business sales
>     3. Work from home schemes

  I strongly suggest "legitimate" be defined as a business legally
entitled to operate in Texas, e.g., has filed an Assumed Name
Certificate in the appropriate county/counties or is in good standing
with both the Texas Sec'y of State and Texas Comptroller.  (Which is
relevant depends on the form under which the business operates, i.e.,
sole proprietorships vs. partnership vs. LLC vs. corporation.)  Also,
any entity posting must hold a valid Texas sales tax number.

  I strongly suggest we add to the end of the first sentence the
phrase "having no locations outside in the North Texas area defined
above."  This takes care of any businesses not local to North Texas.

>  4. This group is for one time posting of commercials. No discussion or
>     follow-up is allowed. Please direct comments and questions to original
>     poster.
>
>  5. Binaries. This is not a binary group. Do not post executable, sound
>     files, images files, etc. in dfw.commercials

  Binaries are covered in the article format section, found below.

>  6. Cross posting. Please do not cross post into our out of dfw.commercials.

 s/our/or/

  I suggest adding to the article format requirements a requirement
for complete contact information, including at least the name of the
business, a valid mailing address, and a telephone number.

  Note that because of the locality requirement, the list of
acceptable area codes will be small, and a requirement that the
telephone number start with a North Texas area code would work pretty
well.  In fact, we could define "North Texas" in terms of area code.

   Bob

In dfw.general al <pabbi@swbell.net> wrote:
> Someone might want to alert David V for his opinion about this proposed 
> hierarchy change, just to ensure no conflict with higher level Usenet 
> restrictions... though, in looking at dfw.jobs, I don't see how this 
> could, except for linking to commercial sites.

Done.

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

In dfw.general al <pabbi@swbell.net> wrote:
> david@cirr.com

That email address is no good, so I guess he'll never know.

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

In article <ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>,
	Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> writes:
> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
> period on dfw.commercials.

No problems with the charter, but I'd like to suggest calling it
dfw.ads as it would be more appropriate. The word "commercials" is
typically used with broadcast entities, not text.

In dfw.general David E. Bath <davidbath1@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>,
>        Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> writes:
>> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
>> period on dfw.commercials.
> 
> No problems with the charter, but I'd like to suggest calling it
> dfw.ads as it would be more appropriate. The word "commercials" is
> typically used with broadcast entities, not text.

Noted. How about the other suggestion of calling it dfw.services since I
expect most of the posts will be for people offering their services
rather than companies selling their products. I think the service type
companies are the main problem here...especially with the number of
people being laid off and starting up on their own.

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote:
>Noted. How about the other suggestion of calling it dfw.services since I
>expect most of the posts will be for people offering their services
>rather than companies selling their products. I think the service type
>companies are the main problem here...especially with the number of
>people being laid off and starting up on their own.

  I hope the purpose behind establishing the newsgroup goes beyond
solving a problem.  I hope the proposed newsgroup satisfies a need.

  I disagree with your assumption that most of the offerings will be
services rather than goods.  The charter as currently proposed seems
to allow (1) a car dealer to list one car per article, including
posting in one day an article for each car on the dealer's inventory;
(2) a realtor to list every property in the MLS book; and (3) an air
conditioning contractor to post articles describing every distinct
service the company offers, one service per article.  Etc.  I'm not as
worried about the small startup companies as I am the larger,
sales-oriented companies with gung-ho sales people.

  The charter should explicitly disallow postings of specific job
openings or by specific individual job seekers, since those belong in
dfw.jobs.  A job placement agency should be able to post an article
promoting the company's services.

  I prefer the original dfw.commercials name over dfw.services.  When
I think of services I include things like services for the homeless,
or Child Protective Services.  Consider something along the lines of
dfw.advertisments, dfw.advertising, dfw.companyads, or
dfw.commercalads.  Specifically, I propose dfw.advertising instead of
dfw.commercials.

  Other suggestions.

  Change the purpose paragraph from "This newsgroup is for commercial
notices of goods and services for sale exclusively in the Dallas / Ft.
Worth and surrounding areas by companies located in Dallas, Ft. Worth,
and surrounding areas."

  Change the sentence starting with "2. You should not post within
..." to "2. Articles reposted within 30 days are off topic even if you
canceled the previous message.  Posting with wording changes that do
not alter the meaning is defined as the posting same article."

  To support "3.3. Work from home schemes" the charter needs to
provide examples of such schemes.  I suspect the intent is to prevent
Avon, Amway, Mary Kay, Tupperware, etc., representatives from
promoting their businesses.  I actually believe the charter should not
exclude such businesses, unless it phrases such an exclusion to
prohibit dealers and representatives of a single company's products
marketed outside Texas, e.g., Ford, GM, UHaul, Avon, Amway, Valvoline,
Lennox, etc.

  The sentence "4. This group is for one time posting of commercials."
contradicts the earlier clause specifying a minimum interval between
reposts.  Rephrasing as "4. This group is for periodic  posting of
commercials.  See above for the minimum interval between postings."
Using "occasional" instead of "periodic" also works.

  Please run a string search for dfw.forsale and substitute each match
with dfw.commercials (or whatever name we end up with).

>Regards
>Nigel

    Bob

I don't like the idea, as is.

- Business ads should be repostable (MaxxCorp probably has 100+ ads in
our DFW.* newsgroups, he & similar advertisers need a good place to
dump all of these advertisements)
- Discussion SHOULD be allowed. People are going to do it anyway,
especially if it's unmoderated, so you might as not make it a rule.
Newsgroups are designed for discussions.


Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote in message news:<ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>...
> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
> period on dfw.commercials.
> 
> Introduction:
> Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and wish
> to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
> dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
> 
> Hostile exchanges take place because those who abide by the dfw.forsale
> charter of non-commercial postings feel it unfair that others post their
> commercial messages there.
> 
> The idea is for small and home based business to post a message about their
> store or services and level the playing field for everyone.
> 
> Many people hate the idea of usenet going commercial, however it might be a
> sign of the times that it cannot remain in its virgin state.
> 
> Proposed charter for dfw.commercials
> 
> Area of Coverage of dfw.commercials
> 
>    This newsgroup is for commercial noticed of goods and services for sale
> exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding areas.
> 
>    dfw.commercials is an unmoderated newsgroup.
> 
> Intended Use of dfw.commercials
> 
>   1. Articles posted in dfw.commercial should be one-time announcements, not
>      recurring advertisements. Please restrict yourself to short messages with
>      follow ups to your website.
> 
>   2. You should not post within 30 days of your last message even if you
>      cancel that previous message.
> 
>   3. Postings should only be made my legitimate businesses. Please do not
>      advertise any of the following
> 
>      1. Garage sales
>      2. Repeated going out of business sales
>      3. Work from home schemes
>      
> 
>   4. This group is for one time posting of commercials. No discussion or
>      follow-up is allowed. Please direct comments and questions to original
>      poster.
> 
>   5. Binaries. This is not a binary group. Do not post executable, sound
>      files, images files, etc. in dfw.commercials
> 
>   6. Cross posting. Please do not cross post into our out of dfw.commercials.
> 
> Topics inappropriate for dfw.commercials.
> 
>   The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As many
>   smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
>   per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation
>   of any of the following abuses: 
> 
>   1.  "Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes. Such
>       schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of bandwidth is
>       the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
>       activity was left unchecked. 
> 
>   2.  Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64. 
> 
>   3.  MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content- encoding
>       other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading Usenet do
>       not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to read to
>       interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a plain
>       text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
>       HTML for the Web. 
> 
>   4.  "spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's. 
> 
>   5.  "test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup. 
> 
>   6.  Excessively multiple-posted articles. 
> 
>   7.  Cross posted articles.
> 
>   8.  Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro Area. 
> 
>   9.  Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the group. 
> 
> This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> article posted in the dfw.forsale newsgroup which does not have particular
> relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a relevant dfw.*
> charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to the posters news
> administrators for dfw.forsale charter violations. 
> 
> Article Format
> 
>   1. Articles posted to dfw.forsale MUST be flat-ASCII. This means: 
>     1. No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64. 
>     2. No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the simplest
>        text-only newsreader. 
>     3. No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable. 
>     4. No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of the post. 
> 
>   2. Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be made
>      available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file posted. 
> 
>   3. Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid" domain
>      is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition USENET
>      newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to be
>      anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.forsale. Post this material
>      elsewhere. 
> 
>   4. ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers. Nor
>      should any attempts, except minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
>      origins of the posting. 
> 
>   5. Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:" header
>      with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line SHOULD be
>      adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or replacing
>      this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article
>      was injected. 
> 
> Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in an article
> being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized moderation
> device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles cross-posted
> to other groups and dfw.forsale must still follow the criteria of dfw.forsale
> and be subject to these rules. 
> 
> Ending Statement.
> Questions can be posted to the dfw.general group if you are just unsure and
> want to know before doing something.

You'al need to realize that all of this discussion in dfw.general
never happened.  What good points you may be making are like the tree
falling in the empty forest.

The people who will decide whether or not to add the newsgroup won't
see any of this.  That is why you MUST set your followups to
dfw.usenet.config and discuss it there.

You need to get someone who is real familiar with how USENET works and
particularly the dfw.* hierarchy operates to keep the discussion on
track as well.  Although, I *could* do it, I have no interest in this
project.

Good luck

Ron Johnson

On 22 Apr 2004 07:18:13 -0700, steveindfw@yahoo.com (Steve) wrote:

>I don't like the idea, as is.
>
>- Business ads should be repostable (MaxxCorp probably has 100+ ads in
>our DFW.* newsgroups, he & similar advertisers need a good place to
>dump all of these advertisements)
>- Discussion SHOULD be allowed. People are going to do it anyway,
>especially if it's unmoderated, so you might as not make it a rule.
>Newsgroups are designed for discussions.
>
>
>Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote in message news:<ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>...
>> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
>> period on dfw.commercials.
>> 
>> Introduction:
>> Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and wish
>> to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
>> dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
>> 
>> Hostile exchanges take place because those who abide by the dfw.forsale
>> charter of non-commercial postings feel it unfair that others post their
>> commercial messages there.
>> 
>> The idea is for small and home based business to post a message about their
>> store or services and level the playing field for everyone.
>> 
>> Many people hate the idea of usenet going commercial, however it might be a
>> sign of the times that it cannot remain in its virgin state.
>> 
>> Proposed charter for dfw.commercials
>> 
>> Area of Coverage of dfw.commercials
>> 
>>    This newsgroup is for commercial noticed of goods and services for sale
>> exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding areas.
>> 
>>    dfw.commercials is an unmoderated newsgroup.
>> 
>> Intended Use of dfw.commercials
>> 
>>   1. Articles posted in dfw.commercial should be one-time announcements, not
>>      recurring advertisements. Please restrict yourself to short messages with
>>      follow ups to your website.
>> 
>>   2. You should not post within 30 days of your last message even if you
>>      cancel that previous message.
>> 
>>   3. Postings should only be made my legitimate businesses. Please do not
>>      advertise any of the following
>> 
>>      1. Garage sales
>>      2. Repeated going out of business sales
>>      3. Work from home schemes
>>      
>> 
>>   4. This group is for one time posting of commercials. No discussion or
>>      follow-up is allowed. Please direct comments and questions to original
>>      poster.
>> 
>>   5. Binaries. This is not a binary group. Do not post executable, sound
>>      files, images files, etc. in dfw.commercials
>> 
>>   6. Cross posting. Please do not cross post into our out of dfw.commercials.
>> 
>> Topics inappropriate for dfw.commercials.
>> 
>>   The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As many
>>   smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
>>   per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation
>>   of any of the following abuses: 
>> 
>>   1.  "Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes. Such
>>       schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of bandwidth is
>>       the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if such
>>       activity was left unchecked. 
>> 
>>   2.  Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64. 
>> 
>>   3.  MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content- encoding
>>       other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading Usenet do
>>       not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to read to
>>       interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a plain
>>       text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please save
>>       HTML for the Web. 
>> 
>>   4.  "spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's. 
>> 
>>   5.  "test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup. 
>> 
>>   6.  Excessively multiple-posted articles. 
>> 
>>   7.  Cross posted articles.
>> 
>>   8.  Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro Area. 
>> 
>>   9.  Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the group. 
>> 
>> This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
>> article posted in the dfw.forsale newsgroup which does not have particular
>> relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a relevant dfw.*
>> charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to the posters news
>> administrators for dfw.forsale charter violations. 
>> 
>> Article Format
>> 
>>   1. Articles posted to dfw.forsale MUST be flat-ASCII. This means: 
>>     1. No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64. 
>>     2. No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the simplest
>>        text-only newsreader. 
>>     3. No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable. 
>>     4. No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of the post. 
>> 
>>   2. Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be made
>>      available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file posted. 
>> 
>>   3. Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid" domain
>>      is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition USENET
>>      newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to be
>>      anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.forsale. Post this material
>>      elsewhere. 
>> 
>>   4. ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers. Nor
>>      should any attempts, except minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure the
>>      origins of the posting. 
>> 
>>   5. Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:" header
>>      with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line SHOULD be
>>      adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or replacing
>>      this header is the responsibility of the news server where the article
>>      was injected. 
>> 
>> Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in an article
>> being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized moderation
>> device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles cross-posted
>> to other groups and dfw.forsale must still follow the criteria of dfw.forsale
>> and be subject to these rules. 
>> 
>> Ending Statement.
>> Questions can be posted to the dfw.general group if you are just unsure and
>> want to know before doing something.


--
Remove NOSPAM to reply by email

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:41:52 -0500, Ron Johnson
<bugmanNOSPAM@airmail.net> wrote:

>You need to get someone who is real familiar with how USENET works and
>particularly the dfw.* hierarchy operates to keep the discussion on
>track as well.  Although, I *could* do it, I have no interest in this

I think most people who are familiar with the dfw hierachy are
watching right now. This seems to be going very well, in exactly the
way UseNet folks want to see :) I predict it will pass the big usenet
config just fine, once everyone has ironed out the difference, and
that seems to be happening nicely.

mama

I started my own business last year this month.
It does not meet the criteria for your proposed newsgroup. Oh well.
By the way.. in #9. of your list of abuses.. you should change "undo" to the
correct "undue".
lucy


"Nigel Reed" <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote in message
news:f2sil1-cvj.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu...
> In dfw.general David E. Bath <davidbath1@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > In article <ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>,
> >        Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> writes:
> >> This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week
voting
> >> period on dfw.commercials.
> >
> > No problems with the charter, but I'd like to suggest calling it
> > dfw.ads as it would be more appropriate. The word "commercials" is
> > typically used with broadcast entities, not text.
>
> Noted. How about the other suggestion of calling it dfw.services since I
> expect most of the posts will be for people offering their services
> rather than companies selling their products. I think the service type
> companies are the main problem here...especially with the number of
> people being laid off and starting up on their own.
>
> Regards
> Nigel
>
> -- 
> http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
> http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)
>
> "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
> numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.
>

lucy wrote:
> I started my own business last year this month.
> It does not meet the criteria for your proposed newsgroup. Oh well.
> By the way.. in #9. of your list of abuses.. you should change "undo" to the
> correct "undue".
> lucy

The way this works, if it's run by the book, is that anyone can suggest 
changes to the proposed charter. If the originator (Nigel) sees that a 
majority of comments are in agreement with a suggested change, that 
particular change should be made, both for the benefit of the people 
interested in contributing to the group, and to ensure that the result 
of the vote is "yes."

At least that was the process in the kinder, gentler, more organized 
Usenet of 10-15 years ago. Who th' heck knows what happens in 2004.

-- 
------------------------------------
best regards,

fcweed               fcweed@mail.com

I understand how it works.. my point is that since my business is operated
out of my home, it doesn't meet his precious criteria.
lucy


"fcweed" <fcweed@mail.com> wrote in message
news:0dSdnYnSl948IRHdRVn-iQ@august.net...
> lucy wrote:
> > I started my own business last year this month.
> > It does not meet the criteria for your proposed newsgroup. Oh well.
> > By the way.. in #9. of your list of abuses.. you should change "undo" to
the
> > correct "undue".
> > lucy
>
> The way this works, if it's run by the book, is that anyone can suggest
> changes to the proposed charter. If the originator (Nigel) sees that a
> majority of comments are in agreement with a suggested change, that
> particular change should be made, both for the benefit of the people
> interested in contributing to the group, and to ensure that the result
> of the vote is "yes."
>
> At least that was the process in the kinder, gentler, more organized
> Usenet of 10-15 years ago. Who th' heck knows what happens in 2004.
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------
> best regards,
>
> fcweed               fcweed@mail.com
>

It's too restricting.
If one wants to police something.. why a newsgroup of all things.


"Steve" <steveindfw@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:180ac350.0404220618.57334e5f@posting.google.com...
> I don't like the idea, as is.
>
> - Business ads should be repostable (MaxxCorp probably has 100+ ads in
> our DFW.* newsgroups, he & similar advertisers need a good place to
> dump all of these advertisements)
> - Discussion SHOULD be allowed. People are going to do it anyway,
> especially if it's unmoderated, so you might as not make it a rule.
> Newsgroups are designed for discussions.
>
>
> Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote in message
news:<ckfgl1-qog.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu>...
> > This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week
voting
> > period on dfw.commercials.
> >
> > Introduction:
> > Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business
and wish
> > to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
> > dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
> >
> > Hostile exchanges take place because those who abide by the dfw.forsale
> > charter of non-commercial postings feel it unfair that others post their
> > commercial messages there.
> >
> > The idea is for small and home based business to post a message about
their
> > store or services and level the playing field for everyone.
> >
> > Many people hate the idea of usenet going commercial, however it might
be a
> > sign of the times that it cannot remain in its virgin state.
> >
> > Proposed charter for dfw.commercials
> >
> > Area of Coverage of dfw.commercials
> >
> >    This newsgroup is for commercial noticed of goods and services for
sale
> > exclusively in the Dallas / Ft. Worth and surrounding areas.
> >
> >    dfw.commercials is an unmoderated newsgroup.
> >
> > Intended Use of dfw.commercials
> >
> >   1. Articles posted in dfw.commercial should be one-time announcements,
not
> >      recurring advertisements. Please restrict yourself to short
messages with
> >      follow ups to your website.
> >
> >   2. You should not post within 30 days of your last message even if you
> >      cancel that previous message.
> >
> >   3. Postings should only be made my legitimate businesses. Please do
not
> >      advertise any of the following
> >
> >      1. Garage sales
> >      2. Repeated going out of business sales
> >      3. Work from home schemes
> >
> >
> >   4. This group is for one time posting of commercials. No discussion or
> >      follow-up is allowed. Please direct comments and questions to
original
> >      poster.
> >
> >   5. Binaries. This is not a binary group. Do not post executable, sound
> >      files, images files, etc. in dfw.commercials
> >
> >   6. Cross posting. Please do not cross post into our out of
dfw.commercials.
> >
> > Topics inappropriate for dfw.commercials.
> >
> >   The following types of net abuse are severe wastes of bandwidth. As
many
> >   smaller sites are connected via slow dial-up links, and may by paying
> >   per-minute charges, this charter allows for the on-sight cancellation
> >   of any of the following abuses:
> >
> >   1.  "Make Money Fast" (MMF) chain letters and pyramid/Ponzi schemes.
Such
> >       schemes are Federal felonies. On Usenet, promoting waste of
bandwidth is
> >       the equivalent of a crime because the system would break down if
such
> >       activity was left unchecked.
> >
> >   2.  Binaries, such as uuencoding or MIME base 64.
> >
> >   3.  MIME/HTML posts, and in particular any posting using a content-
encoding
> >       other than 7bit, 8bit, or quoted-printable. Most users reading
Usenet do
> >       not use a Web browser, and HTML is difficult or impossible to read
to
> >       interpret the content. Some posters who post HTML also include a
plain
> >       text version of the message.This is redundant and wasteful. Please
save
> >       HTML for the Web.
> >
> >   4.  "spew", the reposting of old articles with new Message-ID's.
> >
> >   5.  "test" messages, Please post these to a test newsgroup.
> >
> >   6.  Excessively multiple-posted articles.
> >
> >   7.  Cross posted articles.
> >
> >   8.  Articles that do not have particular relevance to the D/FW Metro
Area.
> >
> >   9.  Flaming, Harassing, or otherwise causing undo discussions in the
group.
> >
> > This charter permits the dfw.* Usenet News Administrators to cancel any
> > article posted in the dfw.forsale newsgroup which does not have
particular
> > relevance to the Dallas/Ft. Worth Area, or is in violation of a relevant
dfw.*
> > charter. Any D/FW Metro area resident may send e-mail to the posters
news
> > administrators for dfw.forsale charter violations.
> >
> > Article Format
> >
> >   1. Articles posted to dfw.forsale MUST be flat-ASCII. This means:
> >     1. No Binary postings, uuencoded or base64.
> >     2. No MIME encoded messages. Posts SHOULD be readable by the
simplest
> >        text-only newsreader.
> >     3. No HTML, although HTML-like emoticons are acceptable.
> >     4. No characters with a value greater than 127 in any part of the
post.
> >
> >   2. Posts SHOULD be shorter than 30K in size. Longer items SHOULD be
made
> >      available for FTP or HTTP download and a pointer to that file
posted.
> >
> >   3. Posts MUST contain a valid From address, unless the ".invalid"
domain
> >      is used (see RFC 1036). Spam blocks are acceptable. By definition
USENET
> >      newsgroups are a broadcast medium. If you have a post that needs to
be
> >      anonymous, it is not a valid topic for dfw.forsale. Post this
material
> >      elsewhere.
> >
> >   4. ROT13 encoding SHOULD NOT be used on any field in the headers. Nor
> >      should any attempts, except minimal spam blocks, be made to obscure
the
> >      origins of the posting.
> >
> >   5. Posts MUST contain a "Abuse-Reports-To:" or "X-Complaints-To:"
header
> >      with a valid email address. When RFC1036 is updated, this line
SHOULD be
> >      adjusted to comply with the latest specifications. Adding or
replacing
> >      this header is the responsibility of the news server where the
article
> >      was injected.
> >
> > Failing to follow the above formatting requirements could result in an
article
> > being canceled instantly and without warning by an authorized moderation
> > device (human or otherwise) for the group in question. Articles
cross-posted
> > to other groups and dfw.forsale must still follow the criteria of
dfw.forsale
> > and be subject to these rules.
> >
> > Ending Statement.
> > Questions can be posted to the dfw.general group if you are just unsure
and
> > want to know before doing something.

"lucy" <lucy@peanuts.com> wrote:
>I understand how it works.. my point is that since my business is operated
>out of my home, it doesn't meet his precious criteria.
>lucy

  Which parts of the proposed charter would articles about your
business violate?

  The criteria belong to no one, and thus cannot be "...his precious
criteria."  If something in the proposal conflicts with what you need
allowed in order to promote your business, offer a change to the
proposal.  Molding the proposed charter into something we can all live
within is what this discussion period is all about.

    Bob

In dfw.general lucy <lucy@peanuts.com> wrote:
> I understand how it works.. my point is that since my business is operated
> out of my home, it doesn't meet his precious criteria.

I think I need to find a better phrasing for some of the stuff I put.
I'm going to look through all the suggestions this week and put up a new
charter on a web page. It'll be easier for people to read and make
changes to.

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

In dfw.usenet.config Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote:
: This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
: period on dfw.commercials.
: 
: Introduction:
: Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and wish
: to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
: dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.

Let me get this straight.

You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.

Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
a group.

I think I know how I'll be voting.

cb

In dfw.general Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
> You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.
> 
> Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
> a group.
> 
> I think I know how I'll be voting.

First off, the ISP doesn't have to carry the newsgroup. Second, rather
have ads in the proper place rather than where they are not appropriate.

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 08:00:15 GMT, "lucy" <lucy@peanuts.com> wrote:

>I understand how it works.. my point is that since my business is operated
>out of my home, it doesn't meet his precious criteria.
>lucy
>

snip cross posting, this is definately a config discussion.

OK Lucy, give us facts. What hasn't been addressed which causes you to
use the word "precious" when referring to the proposed chater for this
group?  This is a matter of fact debate, not a cat fight. Give honest
suggestions for change and people will consider them. If you're
running a multi level marketing business from your home your posts
probably are not going to fit this group. If you are running a
business that is truly service based, as I understand the proposal for
the group, it would be fine. 

mama

In dfw.usenet.config Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote:
: In dfw.general Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
: > You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.
: > 
: > Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
: > a group.
: > 
: > I think I know how I'll be voting.
: 
: First off, the ISP doesn't have to carry the newsgroup.

When Eric sends a newgroup message to create it, 99% of all ISPs
are going to honor it without the sysadmins ever knowing.  So,
basically, the proposal is to reduce the amount of disk space
given to discussion groups in order to make space for advertising.

: Second, rather
: have ads in the proper place rather than where they are not appropriate.

The proper place, Nigel, would be on the web.  Not on news servers.

As a retired news admin, I will be voting with a loud and emphatic
"no."  I encourage everyone to remember that resources aren't infinite,
and the proposal here is to create space for advertising that would
be paid for, in the end, by the consumers, not the advertisers.  It's
the same cost-shifting the spammers enjoy, and it's a dumb idea.

Nothing personal to you, Nigel.  I just think this proposal smells
to high heaven.

cb

In dfw.general Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
> Nothing personal to you, Nigel.  I just think this proposal smells
> to high heaven.

Noted. 

Regards
Nigel

-- 
http://www.sysadmininc.com (My daytime job)
http://www.british-expats.com (My spare time)

"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or
numbered! My life is my own" - the Prisoner.

It appears to me that the whole point of this effort is to give SOHO Mark a
place to post his spam in hopes that he'll leave dfw.forsale alone. It is my
humble opinion that after about a week nobody will ever read a newsgroup
that allows commercial postings like the one being proposed. This seems like
something akin to the frequent suggestions offered by the politicians who
try to solve email spam issues -- they always say something like, "why don't
we just create a new TLD like .ads or .spam and force all the spammers to
use it". Well obviously it sounds like a wonderful idea. Then all everyone
would have to do is simply block any messages from that TLD, right? And then
of course we'd be right back to where we started since the spammers aren't
getting their messages through that way. In the same way, folks like Mr.
SOHO will probably quickly realize that nobody is reading dfw.services and
he'll be back declaring his "God-given Constitutional right to spam anywhere
he wants" and posting his messages in inappropriate groups like he does now.
Or actually, maybe he won't notice. He really doesn't seem to be very bright
from all the childish crap he posts and how he can't resist using CAPS at
STRANGE times IN his POSTS. Lord knows he can't be getting much business
from dfw.forsale after the way he's acted in there. He'll likely get just as
much from a group that nobody reads. So maybe this is a good idea after all.


"Chris Bellomy" <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote in message
news:0T17m0kuIi0nN34@redshark.goodshow.net...
In dfw.usenet.config Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html>
wrote:
: In dfw.general Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
: > You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.
: >
: > Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
: > a group.
: >
: > I think I know how I'll be voting.
:
: First off, the ISP doesn't have to carry the newsgroup.

When Eric sends a newgroup message to create it, 99% of all ISPs
are going to honor it without the sysadmins ever knowing.  So,
basically, the proposal is to reduce the amount of disk space
given to discussion groups in order to make space for advertising.

: Second, rather
: have ads in the proper place rather than where they are not appropriate.

The proper place, Nigel, would be on the web.  Not on news servers.

As a retired news admin, I will be voting with a loud and emphatic
"no."  I encourage everyone to remember that resources aren't infinite,
and the proposal here is to create space for advertising that would
be paid for, in the end, by the consumers, not the advertisers.  It's
the same cost-shifting the spammers enjoy, and it's a dumb idea.

Nothing personal to you, Nigel.  I just think this proposal smells
to high heaven.

cb

Good points, all.

Has a  ".commercials", or anything newsgroup similarly named, ever worked on
any other heirarcy branch of usenet (excluding the alt. region)?  If so, how
well?

Who would actually read the proposed group?  I'm not sure I would, at least
not very often.

-j-

<pattist@earthlink.net>> wrote in message
news:qgfq805a2234pm595usm2km3f9rru4pthk@news.west.earthlink.net...
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:35:02 GMT, Nigel Reed
> <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> wrote:
>
> >In dfw.general Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:
> >> You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.
> >>
> >> Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
> >> a group.
> >>
> >> I think I know how I'll be voting.
> >
> >First off, the ISP doesn't have to carry the newsgroup. Second, rather
> >have ads in the proper place rather than where they are not appropriate.
> >
> >Regards
> >Nigel
> >
>
> Any reputable ISP will carry all the groups in a managed hierarchy, so, if
> this group passes a vote, it will be carried.
>
> However I have the feeling that support for this group is coming more from
> people wanting to move commercial posts out of dfw.forsale, than it is
> from those commercial interests anxious to have a new group. Without a
> base of users who want to use the new group themselves, the group can't
> succeed. You can't make anyone leave dfw.forsale by forming a new group
> for them (You can lead a horse to water and so on).
>
> If it's to succeed, votes should come from from those planning to post to
> the group, otherwise this becomes what is called a NIMBY ( not in my
> backyard) group.
>
> BarB

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:07:18 GMT, Chris Bellomy 
>As a retired news admin, I will be voting with a loud and emphatic
>"no."  I encourage everyone to remember that resources aren't infinite,
>and the proposal here is to create space for advertising that would
>be paid for, in the end, by the consumers, not the advertisers.  It's
>the same cost-shifting the spammers enjoy, and it's a dumb idea.

I think I'm going to have to agree with Chris after reading what's
above.

mama

In article <3T17lq97IhmhN34@redshark.goodshow.net>,
 Chris Bellomy <puevf@tbbqfubj.arg.invalid> wrote:

> In dfw.usenet.config Nigel Reed <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html> 
> wrote:
> : This will begin a two week discussion period followed by a two week voting
> : period on dfw.commercials.
> : 
> : Introduction:
> : Many people are fulfilling the dream of setting up their own business and 
> : wish
> : to get the word out to many people as possible. Many mistakenly believe
> : dfw.forsale is the place for these postings.
> 
> Let me get this straight.
> 
> You want to advertise, but you want ISPs to foot the bill.

Just like dfw.forsale?

> Further, you actually think that anyone will actually *read* such
> a group.

I would.  I tend to use small, independent businesses when I can.
> 
> I think I know how I'll be voting.

Socialist? :)