🚀 go-pugleaf

Gronke (a very astute observer) wrote:

>Last night, Pat Buchanan compared display of the confederate battle 
>flag over a state capital with the hymn of the civil rights movement, 
>"We Shall Overcome."   

>I don't know the particulars of South Carolina, but in the Georgia 
>case, only a fool (Pat B. qualifies, of course) would claim that the 
>Stars and Bars represents "defiance, courage, and bravery in the face 
>of overwhelming odds" (Pat's words in the debate).

>No, Pat, no.  The Stars and Bars was added to the Georgia state flag 
>in the 1950s, as a response to Federal efforts to desegregate schools 
>and enfranchise American citizens who happened to be Black.  It had 
>nothing to do with honoring Civil War dead.  It had everything to do 
>with defiance, but defiance to civil rights.  

>Ever since that period, the Stars and Bars, whatever it may have  
>represented in the Civil War, has come to symbolize white opposition 
>to integration and equal rights.  

>To compare flying the rebel flag, a symbol of racism and oppression, 
>flying over a *state* capital (thus receiving official acknowledgement 
>by the state), to the hymnal sung by Americans of all races as they 
>fought, and died, for *equal* rights in this country, is 
>reprehensible.  It is statements like this that lead many to accuse 
>Buchanan of racism, or at least an appallingly lack of sensitivity to 
>racial issues.  

>Yeah, Pat, you stand up for your heritage -- slavery, oppression, and 
>racism. 

When Bob Dole points out what every KKK and Aryan Nation supporter with a
third grade education already knows-- that Pat Buchanan is an insidious
racist who lets people know about where he is really at with codes and 
symbols, this is exactly what he was talking about. I'm no Dole supporter,
but the man was brave enough to tear back the curtain-- or, in this case,
the sheet-- and expose the racism, extremism, anti-semitism, fascism and
demagoguery under the simple-minded platitudes and divisive rhetoric that
attempts placing the blame for complex problems on minorities and
foreigners (just like Hitler did). Buchanan must be stopped if you love
America, the real America of equal opportunity and liberty and justice for
all.

gronke@acpub.duke.edu (Paul Gronke) wrote:

>Last night, Pat Buchanan compared display of the confederate battle 
>flag over a state capital with the hymn of the civil rights movement, 
>"We Shall Overcome."   

>I don't know the particulars of South Carolina, but in the Georgia 
>case, only a fool (Pat B. qualifies, of course) would claim that the 
>Stars and Bars represents "defiance, courage, and bravery in the face 
>of overwhelming odds" (Pat's words in the debate).

>No, Pat, no.  The Stars and Bars was added to the Georgia state flag 
>in the 1950s, as a response to Federal efforts to desegregate schools 
>and enfranchise American citizens who happened to be Black.  It had 
>nothing to do with honoring Civil War dead.  It had everything to do 
>with defiance, but defiance to civil rights.  

>Ever since that period, the Stars and Bars, whatever it may have  
>represented in the Civil War, has come to symbolize white opposition 
>to integration and equal rights.  

>To compare flying the rebel flag, a symbol of racism and oppression, 
>flying over a *state* capital (thus receiving official acknowledgement 
>by the state), to the hymnal sung by Americans of all races as they 
>fought, and died, for *equal* rights in this country, is 
>reprehensible.  It is statements like this that lead many to accuse 
>Buchanan of racism, or at least an appallingly lack of sensitivity to 
>racial issues.  

>Yeah, Pat, you stand up for your heritage -- slavery, oppression, and 
>racism.  

>--
>gronke@acpub.duke.edu

You elitists are really something. Where is your respect for
democratic principles. It is a fact that majorities in SC and GA have
stood behind their flags, yet you would subvert the will of the people
for your elitist views.

I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
heritage.

Elitists who do not repect our traditions, democratic and historic,
frighten me.

Al Gray
7480@mail.csra.net
E-Mail address: 7480@mail.csra.net

In <327cc$9376.338@news.csra.net> 7480@mail.csra.net writes: 

>You elitists are really something. Where is your respect for
>democratic principles. It is a fact that majorities in SC and GA have
>stood behind their flags, yet you would subvert the will of the people
>for your elitist views.
>
>I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
>heritage.
>
>Elitists who do not repect our traditions, democratic and historic,
>frighten me.
>
>Al Gray
>7480@mail.csra.net
>E-Mail address: 7480@mail.csra.net


Being white, for me the issue is this:
Are you an American or a Confederate?
Basically, do you think that American democracy is the best thing that
ever came along or do you think that a fractious degenerate Confederacy
which despises majority rule is the best government?
Or even more simply, are you a traitor to the USA?

However, if we must look at the issue of race, and we must, then there
are some things that must be looked at closely before I decide to
respect your "traditions."  

It's fair to say that the moral code of a community is best represented
by it's laws and their application.  The South allowed a man to hold as
property as many black concubines as he chose, whom he could force to
have sex against their will.  This seems to me a serious moral flaw in
the traditions of ante-bellum Southern society.  Going further, such
men were legally entitled to do what they pleased with the offspring of
their concubines:  sell them, beat them, sexually abuse them, kill
them.  All these acts were protected by law.  In my view, a society
that protects child molesters and child killers and finds it perfectly
acceptable to sell your own children to passers-by is a very despicable
society indeed.  It is impossible to empathize with such values on any
human level.  What makes it even more reprehensible is that when faced
with a choice between loyalty to their country and loyalty to their
vices, the Southerners chose their vices.

Therefore, I find it impossible to respect your traditions and am
curious to know how you defend these practices?  Why do you take such
pride in such a society?  Why do you reject the US flag and embrace the
Confederate flag as your symbol?

In article <327cc$9376.338@news.csra.net>, 7480@mail.csra.net wrote:

>You elitists are really something. Where is your respect for
>democratic principles. It is a fact that majorities in SC and GA have
>stood behind their flags, yet you would subvert the will of the people
>for your elitist views.

The founding fathers, whom Pat Buchanan so lovingly compares himself to, had 
name for that.  It's called the tyranny of the majority.  I have great respect 
for democratic principles, but I have greater respect for those "elitist" 
principles like the Supreme Court and the Constitution.

If a majority of citizens in SC or GA said "resegregate schools" should I just 
bow before them?  Would you?

>I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
>heritage.

If so, why was it added to the GA flag after the Supreme Court decision to 
desegregate schools?  Just coincidence?  That is blind at best.

>Elitists who do not repect our traditions, democratic and historic,
>frighten me.

Citizens like Al, who fail to see the obvious historical associations that the 
rebel flag have, and what it means when a governmental body legitimizes these 
associations, frighten me.
--
gronke@acpub.duke.edu

In article <327cc$9376.338@news.csra.net>, 7480@mail.csra.net writes:

|> I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
|> heritage.

How 'bout the swastika (sp?) and German heritage?
 
|> Elitists who do not repect our traditions, democratic and historic,
|> frighten me.

As much as I respect Nazi traditions, democratic and historic.

the chuckr

chuckr@bnr.ca (Chuck Ross ) wrote:


>In article <327cc$9376.338@news.csra.net>, 7480@mail.csra.net writes:

>|> I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
>|> heritage.

>How 'bout the swastika (sp?) and German heritage?
> 
>|> Elitists who do not repect our traditions, democratic and historic,
>|> frighten me.

>As much as I respect Nazi traditions, democratic and historic.

Perhaps Chuck would respect you if you flew the Soviet Flag.

In article <rcs8.341.313B4AB0@psu.edu>,
   rcs8@psu.edu (Roger Shouse) wrote:
>
>1)  The swastika has never been a part of our nation's heritage, and 
any 
>comparison between the Nazis and the Confederacy is shaky to say the 
least.
>

The comparison is this: the swastika was the symbol of a racist 
regime.  Many Germans fought valiantly in WWII defending the swastika. 
 The Confederacy is also seen as many as a racist regime.  Many 
Southerners fought valiantly defending the Confederacy.  What part of 
the parallel do you disagree with?

>2)  If you reject the raising of the stars and bars, would you also 
have us 
>tear down monuments and statues honoring Confederate soldiers?  
Generals (R.E. 
>Lee, etc?).

.. anecdote about one African American who likes the stars and bars 
deleted...

>If we must outlaw all symbols directly or indirectly associated by 
some with 
>slavery, then I suppose we must also outlaw the flying of America's 
first 
>flag, for that, too, was flown by people who supported slavery or 
allowed it 
>to continue.  

NO, NO, NO!  When did anyone suggest "outlaw(ing) all symbols ... 
associated ... with slavery"??  What is being suggested is that a 
symbol of racism not be part of the official state flag or fly over 
the state capital.  

AND all those writing in favor continue to IGNORE the reason that the 
Stars and Bars flies as it does.  It was NOT to honor Confederate war 
soldiers.  It WAS flown as a slap in the face of the Supreme Court and 
the Federal Government, as a statement against integration.
--
gronke@acpub.duke.edu

Here's a claim similar to those made over the rebel flag:

there is a poster at our domain that asks why we object to Pat 
Buchanan, since the U.S. has always been a Christian nation.  After 
all, he writes, we have "In God We Trust" on our coinage.

When I tell him that "In God We Trust" was only added by Eisenhower in 
the 1950s in response to Court decisions regarding prayer in schools, 
he isn't quite sure what to say.

Similarly, if you're going to support the rebel flag flying over state 
capitals, you have to make the claim that the flag, *today*, is simply 
a way to honor Confederate war dead or Southern heritage (the good 
parts, not the slavery parts), and tell me how it changed.  Because 
you also need to acknowledge that when the Stars and Bars were added, 
in the 1950s, it was a clear and obvious statement against integration 
of public schools and, given the state of Southern politics at that 
time, should clearly be read as racist.  

(If you're going to start arguing that the Southern response in the 
1950s (or the Civil War for that matter) was over state's rights and 
not race, then let's just stop here.  That's silly.)

--
gronke@acpub.duke.edu

In article <rcs8.341.313B4AB0@psu.edu>, Roger Shouse <rcs8@psu.edu> wrote:
>
>In Chicago, in the center of a mainly African-American neighborhood, a lone 
>Rebel flag flies high.  It is raised daily by an aging African-American 
>gentleman, over what was the site of a Union POW camp, in honor of the men who 
>died there during the war.  He gets a great deal of static from people passing 
>by, but finds that once he explains, that people nod their heads in 
>understanding.
>

frankly, i'm a bit suspicious of your story since you not only don't seem to
know the guy's name [he's only "an aging african-american gentleman"] but i
live in chicago and have never heard of this...

>If we must outlaw all symbols directly or indirectly associated by some with 
>slavery, then I suppose we must also outlaw the flying of America's first 
>flag, for that, too, was flown by people who supported slavery or allowed it 
>to continue.  
>

i think that you're trying to make a strawman argument with this talk of
people wanting to outlaw the rebel flag; i mean, even the ku klux klan has
a right to voice their opinions, and use confederate paraphrenalia.  however,
while it's a person's right to express racist sentiments and symbols under
the law, your attempts to recast racist symbolism under the phony aegis of
"culture" and "heritage" is ridiculous.  i mean, yes, racism is certain
a heritage and an endemic part of the american culture that doesn't form
a sound basis for the kind of rationalizing that you're doing.

in the case of the rebel flag and southern states, it's a fact that the
states of georgia [and i think mississippi] incorporated the rebel flag
into their state flags in the 1950's as a symbol of defiance to federal
efforts to end legalized racism in the southeast, other states in the
southeast began the odious practice of flying the rebel flag over their
state capitols.  now the only heritage with which this had anything to
do is the heritage of racism...

-- 
  __  ______  __  / __/ |       at&t, naperville il, usa
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@att.com
"man's life is a progress; and not a station" -- ralph waldo emerson

On March 5th, rcs8@psu.edu (Roger Shouse) wrote:

[snip]
>The south was defeated, and we can all celebrate that defeat.
[snip]

Roger - I agree with everything else you said in this post 
except this sentence. 

I, for one, certainly don't "celebrate" the defeat.

regards,
bill



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bill Watson                                          watsonb@nando.net
Durham, NC                                        Phone:(919-493-9880)
Web Page Creation & Storage             http://www.rtpnet.org/~bwatson/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
        Say, then, from the heart that you are the perfect day        
            and in you dwells the light that does not fail!.          
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On March 5th chuckr@bnr.ca (Chuck Ross )wrote:
>
>Read again. I never said it was. I asked, how do you feel about the >swastika and German heritage.
I deplore any government which takes up arms and invades its neighbors.
Ring any bells?

[snip]

>The Confederacy was an enemy of the United States. No federal money >should be, or ever have been spent, to honor it or its members.
>You can fly your flag anywhere you want in my book, but that flag >should not fly at any govt buildings.
Who's asking for Federal funding? You seem to confuse State government with Federal government; a position in which I understand you have a long tradition.

Whistling Dixie,
Bill


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bill Watson                                          watsonb@nando.net
Durham, NC                                        Phone:(919-493-9880)
Web Page Creation & Storage             http://www.rtpnet.org/~bwatson/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
        Say, then, from the heart that you are the perfect day        
            and in you dwells the light that does not fail!.          
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On March 5th,  JBRAY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Janet Solursh 
(jbray@uga.cc.uga.edu))wrote: 
>
>>1)  The swastika has never been a part of our nation's heritage, and 
>>any comparison between the Nazis and the Confederacy is shaky to say 
>>the least.
>>
>[snip]
>The South would do well
>to think of the Confederate years in the same way - a shameful part of >history that must be worked through and left in the past.
No thanks Janet. Of course thinking of those slave ships flying the Stars and Stripes on their way back from Africa must bring tears=
 
to your eyes.

>Further, the Nazi era and the Confederacy are similar in that both eras have
>their supporters who want to make history a little more palatable, 
This, to me, is a ridiculous parallel. If you must make these analogies, 
don't forget the invasion of neighboring states under the pretense of
improving other citizen's lives.

>I find it disgustingly ironic that at the same time "angry white males" >in the south demand not to be held responsible for the cri=
mes of their >forefathers,
Crime? Slavery was legal, slave trade was not. Yet the North continued in the slave trading business. Slavery and race was and is a =
problem for all of the country, not just the South. What are the blacks supposed to do about their great-grandfathers that sold them=
 in the first place?

>many of them also demand the right to honor these same forefathers. If >you want to be free of their crimes, you have to repudiate =
the things >they did as wrong and not continually try to whitewash them.
Payment for the wrongs of slavery were paid for by the blood of 300,000
men in grey. A heavy price was paid by both sides for a condition that was with all of us when the county was founded.

>I think there's a big difference between monuments honoring the dead >and a flag that has been hijacked by white supremacists.
They haven't got my flag.

>>If we must outlaw all symbols directly or indirectly associated by >>some with slavery, then I suppose we must also outlaw the fly=
ing of >>America's first flag, for that, too, was flown by people who supported >>slavery or allowed it to continue.
>>
>I don't know of any places outside of Colonial Williamsburg and
>similar sites that routinely fly the Betsy Ross flag.
>But if you can think of more, please feel free to protest against it. 
>I don't recall ever seeing Klansmen waving it, however.
All those slave ships flew the Stars and Stripes, not the Stars and Bars. The colors of the Union are not red, blue, and lily white.=


Whistling Dixie,
Bill


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bill Watson                                          watsonb@nando.net
Durham, NC                                        Phone:(919-493-9880)
Web Page Creation & Storage             http://www.rtpnet.org/~bwatson/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
        Say, then, from the heart that you are the perfect day        
            and in you dwells the light that does not fail!.          
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In article <rcs8.342.313C4D2E@psu.edu>, rcs8@psu.edu (Roger Shouse) writes:
|> In article <4hg1h5$924@cloner3.netcom.com> ciacon@popd.ix.netcom.com (Wayne Johnson) writes: 
|> >rcs8@psu.edu (Roger Shouse) wrote:
|> 
|> >>1)  The swastika has never been a part of our nation's heritage, and any 
|> >>comparison between the Nazis and the Confederacy is shaky to say the least.
|> 
|> >Now you're talking.  The fact that they both had a racist elite,
|> >slaves, murder and mistreatment of innocents, overthrew legitimate
|> >governments to keep these ends, and a serious attempt to expand their
|> >territory, really doesn't mean a thing, does it?
|> 
|> It doesn't mean much.  The same characteristics were evident within our 
|> colonial governments during the time of the American Revolution.  Nazism 
|> suggests a deliberate policy of mass genocide.  Nothing like that can be 
|> linked to the Confederacy. 

The Confederacy suggests a deliberate policy of racism. 
Just because the Confederacy treated its slaves better than the Nazis treated
theirs doesn't make a whole lot of difference.
 
|> Most of your remaining arguments concern the fact that the south practiced and 
|> defended slavery.  Slavery is an immoral and despicable practice to be sure.  
|> But the south was not the only place where slavery was practiced, nor was the 
|> defense of slavery the primary cause of the southern rebellion, nor 
|> did the Union fight against it primarily to end slavery.  Southerners fought 
|> to preserve a way of life, Northerners fought to preserve the union.  The 
|> issues at stake included, but extended far beyond that of slavery.  

True
 
|> The south was defeated, and we can all celebrate that defeat.  At the same 
|> time, we can also honor those men (the vast majority of whom owned no slaves 
|> at all) who believed they were fighting and dying to protect their home 
|> "states." I put the word in quotes because at that time the state was the 
|> primary unit of national identity.
|
Yes, but not at my, the federal or states govt. expense.
 
|> If the people of Georgia, South Carolina, or any other southern state wish to 
|> fly the Stars and Bars--either to honor these men, or as a symbol of 
|> resistance against the federal government--they have the right to do so.  If 
|> they vote not to do so, they are also free to take it down.

Again, at their own expense.
 
|> But in a nation that seems to so strongly seek diversity, consensus, and
|> tolerance, it seems quite strange that we cannot tolerate honoring the memory 
|> of the Confederacy.

We should remember it but not necessarily honor it.

the chuckr

In article <4hjd15$c7r@castle.nando.net>, Bill Watson <watsonb@nando.net> writes:

|> Who's asking for Federal funding? You seem to confuse State government with Federal government; a position in which I understand you have a long tradition.
 
I don't think states should be allowed to fly symbols of the Confederacy.

BTW - I didn't know 2-3 weeks was a "long tradition". That's how long I've
been reading this ng.

the chuckr 

7480@mail.csra.net wrote:


>You elitists are really something. Where is your respect for
>democratic principles. It is a fact that majorities in SC and GA have
>stood behind their flags, yet you would subvert the will of the people
>for your elitist views.

I certainly don't recall the referendum on this issue in Georgia...
Especially since the end of "Literacy Tests" and Poll Taxes...

If there was one, please let me know, because I missed it. 

>I do not see the flag as racist. It has been an important part of our
>heritage.

Who's heritage?  I was born in Georgia, therefore I'm a Southerner,
but I would not spit on Georgia's present flag if it was on fire.

>Elitists who do not respect our traditions, democratic and historic,
>frighten me.

No, you forget that there are millions of Black Southerners too..

Bye
A.J. Rawls

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