🚀 go-pugleaf

What follows are two posts from soc.culture.japan which may be of
interest to non-Americans. Basically the claim is that anybody born
in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen. Not by choice, but automatically.

I am saying that this doesn't make sense to me, and that I doubt it.
But best to read/figure it out for yourself.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Automatic U.S. citizenship (was non-natives in Japan)
References: <239198@mordor.com> <2056@aegis.or.jp> <1992Jul17.175814.12969@acuson.com>

miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman ) writes:

>davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane) writes:

>>root@mordor.com (Chris Mauritz - SysGod) writes:

>  (views on those of Korean ethnicity being considered non-Japanese deleted)

>>>Perhaps my views are a skewed by my "American views" since anyone born
>>>on American soil is automatically granted American citizenship, but
>>>the Japanese treatment of these people seems terribly unfair.

>>Are you sure? Without their say so? I was under the impression that
>>being born on American soil allowed one the *opportunity* to *seek*
>>American citizenship. THIS IS NOT A FLAME (tm), just pointing out
>>that your point could carry further if it made a bit more sense.

>	I am under the inpression that Chris is correct, and being born
>	on US soil automatically confers US citizenship as the default
>	case.  This makes INS people a little wary of granting visas to
>	pregnant women.  The issue doesn't usually matter to the infant
>	but since the US doesn't permit dual citizenship, at some age
>	the US born person might apply for a passport, or register to vote.
>	At that time the US-born individual has to make a decision which
>	they do simply by applying for the passport, (or whatever).  Registering
>	to vote in the US simply requires a birth certificate or equivalent,
>	with no questions about one's parentage, although the parents'
>	birthplace is usually noted on the birth certificate..

Well, you could be right, but still I doubt it. Since, as you say,
the US doesn't permit dual citizenship this means that children
would lose citizenship in the country of their parents (assuming the
parents weren't American). 

>	The US does not have a citizenship card or anything as do the more
>	ID-conscious countries of Europe.  Everyone in the world has the
>	"*opportunity* to *seek* American citizenship."  Those born in the
>	US don't have to "seek", as I understand it.

Like I said, maybe so. But I'd like to see an authoritative reference
before I accept it as fact.

> 	This causes me some trouble as I was born in Holland of US parents
> 	and I need to get a certificate from the US state dept. attesting
> 	to my American-ness.  Also, every time I go to Holland they ask
> 	me to show a return ticket, and much more money for survival than
> 	they ask of my US-born co-travellers.  And finally, the US Constitution
> 	specifically states that only those born in the US may become President
> 	eliminating me from the race (did someone say 'thank heavens'?) but
> 	not someone who was born here on a short stay, and then grew up elsewhere
> 	returning later to the US.  I was told that I had the opportunity to
> 	declare myself either Dutch or American at some point.  Maybe there was
> 	an age limitation (like 18 or so).

Interesting. I take it that Holland does *not* automatically confer
its citizenship to everyone born there.

> 	This right of citizenship was rather flagrantly violated when 
> 	(among other cases) many Mexican-Americans were rounded up in
> 	So. California in the 1930's along with Mexican immigrants and
> 	dumped in Mexico, to save jobs for 'Americans.'  
>	I believe that those born in Japan where one parent is Japanese are
>	Japanese by default - someone else on the net would know better than I.

First off, remember that were aren't talking about *rights* of
U.S. citizenship but whether or not U.S. citizenship is automatically
confered on all those born there.

If this be so, then it means that the children of all the tens of
thousands of British, Japanese, German, etc.  families who are there
on some kind of work visa are becoming U.S. citizens and thereby
losing the nationality of their parents. Really?

I have a British friend married to a Japanese who says that when his
children were born (here in Japan) they were registered as British
subjects on their children's gaijin torokosho that lasts until they
are 16 and then get to get an ordinary gaijin torokosho. He believes
they can apply to become Japanese citizens at 16 just like anybody
else can; of course they stand a very good chance of being accepted. 
In short, not all people born in Japan are automatically Japanese.

>	BTW, what do you mean by "...if it made more sense?"  (lack of comprehension,
>	not a flame.)

What I mean is I dount that U.S. citizenship is automatically given
(not allowed but givin=forced upon) to all those who happened to be
born there (which, as you have already noted, denies citizenship
elsewhere). I would have thought I would have heard complaints as I
find it hard to believe that all non-Americans want to have their
children lose their nationality under these conditions. In your
case, if Holland had such a law, then you would have lost you U.S.
citizenship. 

However, it could be so. After all, the U.S. claims the right to tax
it's citizens no matter where they are, or where they make the money
and I don't read a lot of complaints about that (well, not many :-)

Does anyone have a reference for this? Meanwhile, I'm going to post
this on fj.misc to see what Japanese have to say....

Dave

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: non-natives in Japan
References: <93198@mordor.com> <BrK8wu.21x@world.std.com>

cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

>In article <93198@mordor.com> root@mordor.com (Chris Mauritz - SysGod) writes:
>>davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane) wrote:
>>
>>You are correct.  I am mistaken.  Of course, the government cannot
>>FORCE anyone to accept citizenship.

>In the absense of an official renunciation of citizenship, those born in
>th US are US citizens!! The government can not force you to keep your
>citizenship , but you must actively renounce it to get rid of it. 

>I believe that a parent can not strip citizenship from a child, thus
>a child born here is a US citizen at least until their majority, at
>which time they could renounce. 

Who would have believed it? 

So do they have to get a VISA to vist the country of their parents
if it so requires? 

>Interestingly enough , there are laws which apply to US citizens
>abroad (eg the ones about bribery) that would apply to a US citizen
>but not to a non-citizen. Thus two siblings working in the same
>family business would have completely different liabilities depending
>on their place of birth!

I'll let this one pass...

Dave

--
Dave McLane 
JUNET: davidg@aegis.or.jp (ONLY within Japan: post otherwise)
Nagaokakyoshi, Kyoto Japan Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087