🚀 go-pugleaf

David Bristor on February 26 wrote:
>> In fact, I completely disabled the separate minibuffer even as an
>> option, because observation of users familiar with ordinary Emacs made
>> it clear they could never quite figure out where it was or what it was
>> doing.        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-> That's very surprising, but perhaps depends on just how the separate
-> minibuffer is used.  I've seen it used in the "mode" where it flits around
-> from screen to screen, perhaps thats what you used?  Perfectly awful!

Most users here are using several X applications besides Epoch and so
have several different things going on.  They found it confusing to
have the minibuffer obscured by other X Windows apps or even other
Epoch screens.  And yes, no one liked it flitting from screen to screen.

-> How do your users now find the minibuffer?

It's at the bottom of every Epoch screen in version 4.2.

-> They have to look at the bottom of the current screen.  Which is
-> the current screen?

The one with a solid blue cursor, just like how you determine which is
the active OpenWindow app.  Pity the poor person who is used to
"click-to-type" like on an Apple.

-> What if another screen is covering the current screen's minibuffer?

You press the "Front" key, (L5 on the well-designed type 4 Sun
keyboard), or use C-z r to raise the screen, or click the left mouse
in the title bar, whichever is easier.

-> This is from my .Xdefaults.  It pegs the minibuffer to the bottom of my
-> workstation's screen.  Since I've always worked this way, I don't know if
-> anything in elisp must change to allow the separate minibuffer.  All I ask is
-> that folks not using a separate minibuffer at least give it a try.

Did.  No one liked it.

-> epoch.minibuf.cursor.glyph:	152
-> epoch.minibuf.background:	black
-> epoch.minibuf.foreground:	white
-> epoch.minibuf.font:	*courier-medium-r-normal--12*
-> epoch.minibuf.geometry:	163x1+0-0
-> olvwm.VirtualSticky:	Minibuffer

Using olwm, not olvwm.

-> The last two: sticky cause it to appear on all of olvwm's virtual screens;
-> minimal decor prevents any epoch screens from having a title bar (which is
-> often out-of-date w.r.t. the actual buffer anyway).

There is code for this, to keep the title in sync with the buffer name.

Gerd Hoeren on March 1 wrote:
-> The FAR more important feature though is to get a scroll bar and menu
-> line into Epoch.

The developers' argument is that this should be implemented by the
window manager.  The result is that most Epoch users have been denied
these features.  In fact, if they _had_ been implemented, then there
would be little desire here to even bother with Emacs 19 since even
the Lucid version doesn't sound worth the effort.  If Epoch were what
I wished it had become, then upgrading to whichever Emacs 19 would
make as much sense as buying a new car of the same make as your
current model, not because there was anything wrong with it, but
because it has only an AM radio.  But it is worthwhile when you're
buying an automatic transmission to replace the stickshift, especially
when you're a driving instructor. ;-)

I believe someone did try to implement "widgets" or something to give
these features to Motif users, but we do not have nor do we plan to
acquire this not inexpensive "look-and-feel."

-> Let's not get caught up in the little stuff.

OK.  Me you hear no more.