🚀 go-pugleaf

> From: Peter Brewer <brewer@umd5.umd.edu>
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:12:28 -0500

>>>AS I previously stated to this forum and to rms, the LPF/FSF should take
>>>the same 'tack' as the Consumer's Union and *not* allow any company to use
>>>the LPF/FSF/GNU name to lend credibility to their commercial products.
>>>This seems counterproductive to the stated goals of the LPF and FSF.

>>It may seem that way to you, but that doesn't seem to be the case to
>>me.
>>>The highest form of nepotism! You work for them.


>Do you know what nepotism means?  If so please define it for me.  When
>two organizations work jointly together on a project to their own
>advantage, that isn't necessarily nepotism.  Please state why you
>think it is nepotism.  So far you have raw accusations that happen to
>be false without any support.

And people want to put me in their kill rings? It looks like its time
for another epsiode of "Have Flame, will travel". Johnny! Flame on!>>>>>>

Foolish boy you dare lecture me on the meaning of nepotism? Me, the one
who can trace the etymologies of these words to their latin origins?
Your comportment deserves the ultimate punishment! The fickle finger of 
flame points at *you* with another long and windy etymology! 

>Working for a company doesn't mean nepotism exists.  I mean most
>people work for a company, and that would render the term useless.

>For a clue, nepotism usually has to do with the fact that an
>undeserving, or unqualified person, usually blood related obtains
>financial advantage, or an advantage of power, simply because of the
>mere fact that they are blood related to a person in the position to
>grant them power.

Nepotism: From the Latin root nepos -otis ; pertaining to a nephew or
grandson... derives the Latin/Italian word nepotismo; tendencies of 
certain fathers/grandfathers in past centuries to favor their own 
family or good friends with 'blessings' or favors. Favoritism of 
relatives or friends.  [ See the "Godfather" pts I, II, & III ] 

From Webster's Unabridged 2nd edition: favoritism shown to 'nephews'
( which could mean friends, 'godchildren', etc., etc. ) by medieval
prelates. favoritism shown to nephews and other relations; the practice
of appointing relative to situations of emolument, in disregard oof the
Now, in light of the definition of nepotism, please explain why I, or
Cygnus achieved our status because we (or I) are related on a
non-technical basis to the FSF, and how we are unqualified to do the
job we do, and how there are others that are in fact more qualified.
claims of others better fitted for the offices.

*** NOTHING says that the individual or group has to be a 
    'relation' to obtain favors. *IN* fact numbskull the definitions
    out of their way to place nephew or grandson in parentheses.
    It also says absolutely nothing; nothing about 'granting power'.
    Basically the 'godson/nephew/grandson' goes to the 'father/signore' 
    his 'blessing'. Albeit the 2nd definition in line mentions 
    something about less than deserving 'nephews' earning something
    they do not deserve; this is not the true 'gist' of the meaning.

I believe I used the word correctly given your vitriolic attack on me.
Your diatribe could be considered a 'favor' or 'blessing' rendered to
your company just because they are 'your company' and not because they
deserve to be defended. 

[ Ohh Master Mash gooood! Igor don't step into that flame you impetuous
  young fool! ] Ooops Crash go the Chariots of the arrogant!

>You just don't have a clue, hang out for a few more years, and learn
>the facts before you go around making such wild claims.  Learn how to
>properly use the English language.

Have no fear; I have been far better educated in its use.
I did not receive my education in institutions dedicated to
the bliss of Outcome Based Education as is apparent in your case. 
AND what wild claims, pray? 

>>No, as long as the FSF & GNU are not mentioned and you give it your
>>own product name and make no attempt to derive credibility from the FSF.
>>You are not the FSF/GNU you work for profit.

>Wrong.  You just don't have a clue.  I _am_ the offcial FSF maintainer
>for g++.  I work for them for free, they have never, nor will they
>ever reimburse me for my work.  

*AND* therefore do not represent Cygnus but yourself in cooperation
with the FSF. If you are assigned to act as maintainer by Cygnus there
is a definite conflict of interest in my opinion.

>It is true that Cygnus Support employs me.
And what is your job description vis-a-vis the GNU/FSF tools?

> Horse hockey!!!! What millions of dollars?
>If you have to ask, you just don't have the facts.  Get them, then
>figure out the truth.  It is hard to know or understand the truth
>without facts.  I am sorry that you seem to think you have the truth,
>without having the facts.

*IF* Cygnus pumps millions of dollars into designing and writing new
code, docs, and maintenance for Cygnus that is fine. If they do it
in order to create a situation wherein their company might be
'control' the FSF and its software products through this funding 
then the FSF/LPF are not capable of enough objectivity to call for
boycotts, protests, etc. against other commercial entities given
the obvious 'nepotism' inherent in this type of relationship. 

>Cygnus support advances the free software for the FSF.  Cygnus does
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I find this to be a very questionable relationship if true. Is the
FSF controlled by a commercial entity which competes for $$ with
firms like Apple, Lotus, and Unisys? I find this most unsettling
from an ethical point of view.

>this by investing real dollars into development.  They buy real
>machines, real disk drives, real programmers, real managers, real test
>personnel, real testsuites.  The pay real money for real connections
>to the Internet.  The buy real routers, with real money.  If one
>totals the money, it comes out to more than you'll ever put into free
>software.

FINE! As long as it is for Cygnus. Anything done for the FSF must be
done in terms of 'charitable donations' not as a paid or unpaid
consultant which infers control and influence.

>>How about the *billions* the government and john q taxpayer dumped
>>into it first?

Excuss me, but you seemed to have jumped off the deep end of the pool.
Swim back to solid footing, and I could talk about it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sorry friend but you've just stepped in the ca-ca.

>>Who the hell do you think is behind the Internet,
>>Unix, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ?

>Do you think the Internet programmed g++ or gcc?  Cygnus has an
>Internet connection.  They founded TLG, which is a commericial IP
>provider that derives no source of revenue from the federal
>government.  They are 100% financed by customers that pay money.
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                       The U.S. government is probably a major
                       customer of many of your 'customers'. Lets
                       'delete' the middle man shall we?

>AT&T developed UNIX, AT&T owned UNIX.  
Under contract to the federal contract. Berkeley's release of Unix were
developed under contract to DARPA basically because certain Multics
machines running NCP needed to talk to each other across the 
country and that network became the first worldwide Wide Area Network and
the called it the ARPAnet. In the process of building 'networking' and
VM into a Unix kernel TCP/IP was developed. IMPs and other networking
hardware were developed by BBN under contract to the Maryland Procurement
Office, Ft Meade. Go to the offices at M.I.T. and if they are available
look up all contracts associated with Maryland Procurement Office and
DARPA. Do you really believe the Internet 'built itself' due to the 
'synergy' of small businesses like Cygnus?  Are you really that naieve
that you could possibly believe that the tools you use were not in
part funded by John q Taxpayer? Albeit an ignorant John Q. Taxpayer,
because if he had known that his money was being spent so that computer
geeks could play endless games of hack... ;>))

EEP; EEEP; Reality check time.
Danger, Danger, Will Robinson?&^%%%$R ( or is it Lenier? )

>At no time did the UNIX they own ever belong to `the people'. They sold 
>UNIX off.
They had promised to place it in the public domain because they were
totally funded in this area almost exclusively by the Federal government.
Unfortunately, they broke their oath and there are laws on the books
about protecting the 'intellectual property' of government contractors.
( probably put their by greedy congress critters who went into corporate
  law after their term in congress. )

>>Your company is *small* potatoes in the overall scheme of who gets
>>the credit
>You just don't have a clue.  Go read the details in gcc/*ChangeLog*,
>gcc/cp/*ChangeLog*, gdb/*/*ChangeLog*... and after you have the facts,
>then tell me who in fact does the work.  You seem to not understand
>that without the people doing the work, the software wouldn't exist.
Okay, ask Berkeley who funded BSD. Ask AT&T where most of the money
came from to fund C++, C, etc., etc. 

I have no problem with you as an individual separate from Cygnus 
claiming credit for hard work; but I do if Cygnus has any type
of control over the FSF source tree. Do you see the difference?

>>and *believe me* if you want to be accurate about this you could
>>name yourself DARPAs little helpers or the Tax Payer Inc.
>Only facts will sway me, not random ramblings by someone that doesn't
>have a clue.  Go state the facts, and I'll decide by myself who is
>responsible for what.

As stated above:
Go to the offices at M.I.T. and if they are available
look up all contracts associated with Maryland Procurement Office and
the DARPA. I refuse to spend any time looking up contract numbers
for the purposes of our flame war. Naivete does not impress me pal.

>How do you explain away the facts?  Do do you account for them?  Have
>you ever seen them?
Afraid mine are far more persuasive. You see Cygnus' contribution is
a small 'drop in the bucket' in the overall scheme of things.
But it is good drop and not the 'dregs' and I would prefer it if
the individuals involved were the contributors and not the organization.

>>>If you haven't studied the relationship for a year, please do, and
>>>when you are knowledgable enough to comment on it, then do.
>>You obviously have not been around the Internet for more than a year.

>This shows your ignorance.  Get the facts.  If you want the facts, you
>can ask me.
I think I've just hurled you back to the elementary school level. Try to
keep your moronic comments to yourself in the future. 

>>I demand that you profusely thank every damn taxpayer;
>You just don't have a clue.
Jumping Jack Flash just burned your rants!

>>the DARPA; DoD & all the other government agencies for making
>>it possible for you to exist!  After all copyrights are about giving
>>credit where credit is due.
>Go check the copyrights, they say FSF.  Cygnus Support assigns most of
>it's work over to the FSF.

Well they shouldn't be!
Go check the contracts for the MPO and DARPA. Stop being naieve and
come to realize who is really paying the bill here!

>You are one of the most vocal ignorant persons I have met in a while.
>I don't hold any of your ignorance against you, as most people are
>ignorant about something.  What I hold against you is the fact that
>you think you know the truth and the facts, but don't.
You are a young cretin who doesn't know how to listen. I made my
point and then stopped by you decided you had to attack me out of
some immature impulse. Your 'facts' are a small kernel of corn in
huge field of corn rows. In that context they are non sequitur.

>If you want to try and prove me wrong, try and explain the work done
>in g++ (from gcc-2.6.3/gcc/cp from Sep 7th of 1993 to Nov 17th 1994.
>Here is the information on who did the work from the ChangeLog
>entries:

I don't like all of the references to Cygnus it seems scandalous.
And as to your 'Changelog' I bought my first C++ translator from
Bjarne Stroustrup and AT&T. It was v1.0 and as I recall g++
did not even exist yet. Kind of puts it all in perspective doesn't
it. 

>You can claim the information is doctored (but then you have to back
>it up), you can claim that cygnus support is funded by the taxpayers
>(but then you have to back it up), you can claim cygnus.com is funded
>by the federal government (but then you have to back it up), you can
>claim that this is an abnomally, and is unrepresenative of the FSF's
>free software in general (but then you have to back it up), or ...

Talk about ignorance and naivete; you still don't get it do you?

>Get real, get a clue.  You have to earn respect, no ones gives it to
>you.  I have earned mine.  Time for you earn your own.

I'm laughing as I put in a call for FireMarshall Bill so that he can
teach you the fine art of self-immolation. ;-) :)) :>)) hahahahahaha

>>>>>>> FLAME OFF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

*******************************************************************************

The problem with modern technology is not only that it is changing so fast but
because of specialized fields and their associated 'specialty languages' 
we don't understand, important decisions are 'made for us'. To maintain our 
freedom a way must be found to inform and educate everyone about the rapid 
changes, the multi-disciplinary discoveries, and their effect on us. 
       -- Excerpted from James Burke's 'Connections' series

*The Answer is*: 1968: E-mail, computer conferencing, multiple windows, mice.
                    "Augmentation of Man's Intellect!!".      
                    "Increasing the capability of man to approach a complex
                     problem or situation, gain comprehension to suit his
                     particular needs and derive solutions to problems."
        -- Doug Englebart ( '95 Ziff-Davis Distinguished Achievement Award' ) 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                           someone must be reading my .sigs maybe I should
                           copyright them... ;-)

    Whose current evolutionary step is known as the  *** INTERNET ****.

**************************  brewer @umd5.umd.edu  *****************************