🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <1993Jan12.161116.4263@maths.tcd.ie>, tim@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) writes:
>As a humble Mac user,
>I find your boycott most upsetting.
>I'm sure no-one in Apple is losing sleep over it.

The goal of the boycott is to not waste FSF resources supporting a company
with particularly anti-FSF business practices.   The goal is not to cause
Apple grief. 

>And it doesn't affect anyone at FSF,
>as you all have your personal Sparcs under the bed.

I believe FSF had a Mac or two at the time the boycott was imposed.  At any
rate, it's been in effect long enough for substitutions to have been made.

>We -- the great unSunned masses --
>are the only people affected.

Wrong--FSF has been spared the overhead of supporting Mac ports, which would
not exactly be negligable.

>Please try to think of it from our point of view,
>and find some other way to pursue your squabble.

It's not a squabble.  Please don't ask them (us) to compromise their (our)
beliefs for your convenience.  You bought the Mac, implicitly supporting
Apple's business practices--now live with your decision.  Keep the Mac and
forget GNU software or replace the Mac.  The choice is yours.

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)                 Computers should work the way beginners
Martin Marietta Energy Systems           expect them to, and one day they will.
Workstation Support                                                -- Ted Nelson

tim@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy) writes:

>As a humble Mac user,
>I find your boycott most upsetting.
>I'm sure no-one in Apple is losing sleep over it.
>And it doesn't affect anyone at FSF,
>as you all have your personal Sparcs under the bed.

>We -- the great unSunned masses --
>are the only people affected.
>Please try to think of it from our point of view,
>and find some other way to pursue your squabble.

>-- 
>Timothy Murphy  
>e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie
>tel: +353-1-2842366
>s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

I have to second Mr. Murphy's opinion. We understand why FSF is not happy
with Apple. But there are other ways to deal with that.

The boycott only affects users like us that spent a small fortune buying
a lowly Mac, and won't have money to buy a Sparcs station any time soon.

Thanks a lot for what you have done, though.


-- 
M\'{\i}ngch\=ang J\={\i}ang

%%%%%%%% If it ain't broke, fix it.

-- 
M\'{\i}ngch\=ang J\={\i}ang

%%%%%%%% If it ain't broke, fix it.

In article <1993Jan12.160747.19249@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>I would like to find out to find the extent to which the Foundation's
>pursuit of its beliefs in this matter conflicts with its tax-exempt
>status, insofar as it surely contradicts its alleged charitable ends.

   Mikhail, I get the strong impression that, at this point, you are simply
looking for anything to be contrary about just because you don't like the
FSF.  You made your original point fairly clearly, I think.  You are
greatly diminishing the force of your argument by bringing up lots of
tangential (and sometimes wrong) facts or opinions, and muddying up the
issues considerably.

   If the FSF were hurting its tax-exempt status by refusing to port GNU
software to the Mac, or refusing to merge contributed ports into our
working sources, the IRS would have known about it years ago.  It's
obviously not a problem.  We have an auditor examine our records every year
to make sure we are still complying with the tax exemption rules.

   You can't even claim we are forcing anyone else not to port GNU software
to the mac.  We haven't, and such ports already exist.  We merely ask
people not to for what we think are good reasons.

>>>>> In article <1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov>, de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:

<> You bought the Mac, implicitly supporting
<> Apple's business practices--now live with your decision.  Keep the Mac and
<> forget GNU software or replace the Mac.

Or port GNU software to the Mac yourself.  Nobody's going to stop you,
though they may try to talk you out of it.

- Harald

In article <1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill)
writes apropos of the boycott of Apple by the FSF, allegedly initiated
in order not to "waste FSF resources supporting a company with
particularly anti-FSF business practices":

>It's not a squabble.  Please don't ask them (us) to compromise their (our)
>beliefs for your convenience.  You bought the Mac, implicitly supporting
>Apple's business practices--now live with your decision.  Keep the Mac and
>forget GNU software or replace the Mac.  The choice is yours.

How interesting.  I would like to find out to find the extent to which
the Foundation's pursuit of its beliefs in this matter conflicts with
its tax-exempt status, insofar as it surely contradicts its alleged
charitable ends.  Is there a lawyer in the house?

>-- 
>Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)                 Computers should work the way beginners
>Martin Marietta Energy Systems           expect them to, and one day they will.
>Workstation Support                                                -- Ted Nelson


cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
"Les beaulx bastisseurs nouveaulx de pierres mortes ne sont escriptz
en mon livre de vie.  Je ne bastis que pierres vives: ce sont hommes."

Exactly -- if you want the software, write it.  Or buy it from someone.  Or
form your own corporation (I've always wondered a "Public Domain Software
Foundation" would be like), write a manifesto, and get people to donate
time/money into getting software that you like.  Just because hackers don't
like your machine or the company that makes it is no reason to attack them,
especially since they aren't attacking you (unless you feel that just
because it isn't written for YOUR machine, means that you are being
attacked).  So if you stop complaining and start coding, maybe you can get
the software up and running on a Mac...

Sorry, but I thought it was obvious...
(And yes, I do use a Mac from time to time, and suffer from the dearth of my
favorite editor...)

-tony
--
Anthony Rossini       -       rossini@biostat.harvard.edu
Department of Biostatistics, Harvard School of Public Health
677 Huntington Ave, Boston MA 02115  617-432-1056

In article <1993Jan12.160747.19249@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>In article <1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill)
>writes apropos of the boycott of Apple by the FSF, allegedly initiated
>in order not to "waste FSF resources supporting a company with
>particularly anti-FSF business practices":
>
>>It's not a squabble.  Please don't ask them (us) to compromise their (our)
>>beliefs for your convenience.  You bought the Mac, implicitly supporting
>>Apple's business practices--now live with your decision.  Keep the Mac and
>>forget GNU software or replace the Mac.  The choice is yours.
>
>How interesting.  I would like to find out to find the extent to which
>the Foundation's pursuit of its beliefs in this matter conflicts with
>its tax-exempt status, insofar as it surely contradicts its alleged
>charitable ends.  Is there a lawyer in the house?

This is silly.  A charity is under no obligation to provide
for everyone all of the time.  A charity may elect to dedicate
its time and resources to any goal however it is decided by
that charity's corporation.  Of course, under your current reasoning,
we should call into question any pro-life charity for not contributing
to pro-choice groups.

>
>cordially,
>mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
>"Les beaulx bastisseurs nouveaulx de pierres mortes ne sont escriptz
>en mon livre de vie.  Je ne bastis que pierres vives: ce sont hommes."

BCnya,
  Charles O. Onstott, III



-- 
Charles O. Onstott, III                         (coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu)
Graduate Student in Religion and the Human Sciences
The University of Chicago Divinity School
        "[T]he problem of history cannot be solved by avoiding it." (B. McGinn)

In article <1993Jan12.160747.19249@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
> In article <1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill)
> writes apropos of the boycott of Apple by the FSF, allegedly initiated
> in order not to "waste FSF resources supporting a company with
> particularly anti-FSF business practices":

> >It's not a squabble.  Please don't ask them (us) to compromise their (our)
> >beliefs for your convenience.  You bought the Mac, implicitly supporting
> >Apple's business practices--now live with your decision.  Keep the Mac and
> >forget GNU software or replace the Mac.  The choice is yours.

> How interesting.  I would like to find out to find the extent to which
> the Foundation's pursuit of its beliefs in this matter conflicts with
> its tax-exempt status, insofar as it surely contradicts its alleged
> charitable ends.  Is there a lawyer in the house?

Hmmm.... Are they a charity?  They do accept donations, but so does
Common Cause, the ACLU, the Heritage Foundation, etc.  Of the three,
only one, the ACLU, can remotely be called a charity, and they pick
and choose what cases they will represent for free based on their own
agenda or mission (manifesto).  They all are non-profits, and I'm sure
they are registered with the IRS as such.

Want an example of an organization that actively supports boycotting
from time to time?  How about the NAACP?  They've done that to advance
their goals.

So, are you sure you have a legitimate beef on FSF's tax exempt status?
=== Al

>>>>> "Noah" == Noah Friedman (friedman@gnu.ai.mit.edu)

Noah> Mikhail, I get the strong impression that, at this point, you are simply
Noah> looking for anything to be contrary about 

Of course. Anything else, and we'd know for sure that someone had
hacked Mikhails acount.

Look, Mikhail is an artist, and damn good. Enyjoy. Do not worry if it
does not make sense in your world.

/Lars
--
Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of
CS Dept., Aalborg Univ., DENMARK. | these things.  -- Calvin

In article <1993Jan12.173830.18153@ornl.gov> de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill) writes:
>The goal of the boycott is to not waste FSF resources supporting a company
>with particularly anti-FSF business practices.   The goal is not to cause
>Apple grief. 

I don't think this is true.  If it were, the FSF wouldn't try to convince
others not to port their software to the Mac, since that doesn't use FSF
resources.

The goal of the boycott is to convince Apple to change its practices.  The
hope is that some users will choose not to purchase Apple computers because
GNU software isn't available for it, and other users will choose not to
purchase Apple computers because they are actively participating in the
boycott.

-- 
Barry Margolin
System Manager, Thinking Machines Corp.

barmar@think.com          {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar

In article <1j04m4INNn1d@early-bird.think.com> barmar@think.com (Barry Margolin) writes:
>The goal of the boycott is to convince Apple to change its practices.  The
>hope is that some users will choose not to purchase Apple computers because
>GNU software isn't available for it, and other users will choose not to
>purchase Apple computers because they are actively participating in the
>boycott.

Right now, perhaps 95% (_My_ guess, so no flames)  of all apple users don't
know GNU from their gnee (oops, that's knee). I think Barry's assessment of
the boycott goal is correct. This wouldn't be cheap, but maybe the thing
to do is to let the apple users know about the boycott.