🚀 go-pugleaf

Prove the universe exists. Measure it. Reproduce it. Then tell me it's 
real. Until then, by your own defense, it does not exist.

CalgaryBill wrote:
> "SilverStar" <you.dont.get@it.com> wrote in message
> news:w4Tod.316793$nl.276385@pd7tw3no...
> 
>>CalgaryBill wrote:
>>
>>>Bullshit.  An atheist is reasonably likely to accept evidence ...
>>>measurable, reproducible events would allow many atheists and
> 
> agnostics
> 
>>>to re-evaluate.  Then apply Occam's razor to such evidence ... if
> 
> the
> 
>>>scientific method could not debunk such evidence, I'd certainly
>>>reconsider.  Unfortunately, no such evidence has arisen during the
>>>entire history of mankind.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>For an Atheist, you certainly sound rather defensive and closed
> 
> minded.
> 
>>Surely, one would expect such an intelligent and enlightened man to be
>>able to bring forth proof for his claims.
> 
> 
> You keep trying to twist what others say.  I need some form of
> measurable and reproducible proof to change my world view.  All of my
> reading, and all the statements from folks who believe in any gods have
> not provided any shred of proof that has held up under even cursory
> examination with the scientific method.  You can rightly say that I lack
> the quality called faith, but in order to alter my original frame of
> mind, I require some real proof.  Much as a jury in court ... how is the
> requirement for proof close-minded?  I would consider anyone who cannot
> meet my burden of proof to be extremely close-minded, and definitely
> with no basis for their own belief system.
> 
> 

It is not that you do not believe in God, it is that you believe there 
is no God. It is a belief, just the same. Nearly everything you think, 
nearly everything you know, are merely beliefs. Even with evidence 
provided by others, it is still just a belief. You put your faith in 
their word and trust that they are right. Until you experience it for 
yourself, not to question is to put your faith in others blindly and 
allow them to pull you along. Question and examine. Learn for yourself 
and reproduce it for yourself, before you go saying it's true.

> 
>>I'm not trying to tell you that there is a God and that you should
>>believe it for no reason, nor am I going to side with you. I have my
> 
> own
> 
>>beliefs, based upon my own experiences, but it is not my right to push
>>those beliefs on another.
>>
>>But, I do challenge you to approach it with an open mind. Simply
>>throwing everything to do with religion away as mere insane drivel,
>>screaming at the top of your lungs how all those who believe in a God
> 
> or
> 
>>Gods or Goddess(es) or what-have-you, are simply insane loons, shows
> 
> 
> Who are you talking to here?  I have made no such post in this thread.
> I simply find those who ask others to prove a negative are extremely
> moronic, and clearly show their own inability to think and communicate
> clearly; probably arising from their own uncertainties, which they wall
> off behind a wall of obstinacy that they choose to label as 'faith'.
> 

This is a fairly long thread. You're not the only one to read it. Does 
an author need to address a passage specifically at someone, or are they 
allowed to make a general statement, for all who may read it, to ponder 
and judge the merit, for themselves? Perhaps you should read over it and 
decide what merits it has as a general statement, instead of one 
specifically aimed at yourself?

> 
>>that you are unable to think beyond your little box. And while many
> 
> who
> 
>>follow religions are very closed minded and refuse to think beyond the
>>little 1'x1'x1' box they're stuck in, what does it say when there are
>>"skeptics" who do the same thing, but at the polar reverse? Instead of
>>preaching that there IS a God, they preach that there ISN'T one.
> 
> 
> Some, yes ... that's very basic ternary logic.  But it does not detract
> from the non-believers, who require proof, or at least corroboration by
> someone they consider a credible investigator, to allow such data to
> enter into their world view.  Again, measurable and most importantly ...
> reproducible.
> 

Again, as I started it out with, prove the universe exists, by your 
defense. Measure it and everything in it, in every way, including that 
which you do not yet know and reproduce it all. Until then, you have no 
basis to challenge for proof, when trying to make such a statement. You 
only believe you exist, in a universe you believe exists. Until you have 
proof, what does it matter?

> 
>>It's still a religion. And so long as you try to even be bothered with
>>the idea, you show how simple you are. It simply doesn't matter. God
> 
> or
> 
>>not, no matter what arguments you try to put in either case, it simply
>>doesn't matter.
>>
>>Who cares if there's a God, or not? Does it have to determine how you
>>live your life? If you try to live a good life, simply because you're
>>afraid of some God, does that mean that without such a fear, you would
>>live your life as a bad person, going out and killing people, without
> 
> care?
> 
> If there is, or isn't, you are right ... such a 'fact' in itself would
> have no influence on my own life.  However, when the 'faith-holders'
> attempt to restrict my life, or the lives of anyone else, with some
> tenet of their specific faith, then it does matter, as I do happen to
> believe that no church is as important as even a single individual.
> 

That is sadly true. So many who wish religion to rule the world, to 
enslave the intellectual, to chain the meek who use their brains to 
fight, instead of their brawn. The very ones they have long said shall 
inherit the Earth.

> 
>>Do you try to live your life in defiance of what religions teach at
> 
> the
> 
>>basic level, just because you don't believe in a God and you want to
>>tempt whatever fates there may be?
> 
> 
> In general, I adopt the values of the culture that I live in, as you
> seem to be suggesting, as long as that religion and its followersw
> follow the Golden Rule.  If the religion steps past that boundary, then
> I do tend to perform acts in defiance of those faith-holders who support
> the dictates of such organizations.
> 

If their God does not exist, they do not exist. Handle it as such and 
react accordingly.

> 
>>Do you really have to be led by another, be it someone who you elect,
> 
> or
> 
>>someone/something who may or may not even exist at any level? Are you
> 
> so
> 
>>unable to make your own choices and live your life as you decide? Do
> 
> you
> 
>>really have to spend so much of your time, defending your belief in a
>>lack of a God?
> 
> 
> You seem to be the one wasting a lot of words and time in defence of
> your belief system.  I stepped into this thread because it was clear
> that FNO and you were making blanket sttatements that are clear
> bullshit.  Be it religion, or computers, or any other topic in which I
> am reasonably versed, I feel no problem inherent with my calling a liar
> a liar.
> 

Well, I have a few days off and I'm bored, so I figured I'd get into a 
bit of a debate, just for entertainment. And if you believe a statement 
is bullshit, so be it. I base what you say, not upon your character, but 
upon the merit of what you say. Remember, what you think, is still just 
a belief. Either for the existence of God or against, there is no proof 
beyond the personal experiences, experiences which simply cannot be 
reproduced any more than your first kiss, or your first fuck, or even 
your first breath, can be reproduced. So, it's a moot point, no?

> 
>>Why do you let it matter to you? Even without the concept of time,
> 
> long
> 
>>before anyone measured it, it existed. Atoms were moving, through
> 
> space
> 
>>and time. Stars were born and died. It existed, before there was
> 
> anyone
> 
>>around to care if it did. It'll continue to exist after there's no one
>>left to care. Any God there may be, is the same way. You don't have to
>>worry yourself about if it does or doesn't exist. It just shouldn't
> 
> matter.
> 
> So, why should you care to try so hard to put words in others mouths,
> and to try to bullshit your way through this thread?  If it doesn't
> matter, then you should let the thread die.
> 

I tend to kill threads, by posting to them. The means employed to get 
the ends desired. Plus, I just like beating mental children with a 
mental stick, for being idiots.

> 
>>So why do you let it matter so much? Why get into countless debates
>>about religion, beliefs and faith, when in the end it doesn't matter
>>worth a damn. If you want to live a good life, then live a good life.
> 
> If
> 
>>you want to live a bad life, then stand in line and sign the waiver,
> 
> so
> 
>>I can kill you myself. If you can't choose to be good on your own,
>>you're not worth the time to be alive.
> 
> 
> And now you are trying to totally change the thread, because it is clear
> that you realize that your bullshit is indefensible.
> 
> 
> 

I've seen nothing but walled up "bullshit" coming from you. You don't 
debate your points, or defend the attacks made, you simply try to call 
it bullshit, just as Lauzon calls people assholes. You don't win a 
debate by throwing mud, you win a debate by making them realize they're 
wrong. Best not to step into a debate I become part of. They tend to 
deserve mental health warnings, for the insanity and questioning of 
reality they can cause.