🚀 go-pugleaf

You truly are ignorant. People begin learning their values, from the 
moment they're born. Their parents, their family, their friends. All of 
those start teaching people the difference between what society sees as 
right and what society sees as wrong. Religion has had no real part in 
my upbringing. I've spent my life, continually evaluating and 
re-checking everything I believe and every action I have made, to see if 
it is "right" or "wrong".

It is only the indoctrinated zealots who think that beyond the borders 
of their fragile religion, there is only horror and hatred. That is 
something you were taught, by your religion. You do not see those who 
believe different from you, as being anywhere close to your equal. You 
feel you are superior to all who don't believe the same things you do.

Well guess what: The bible was penned by man. The ideas in the bible 
were worded by man. The bible is a book with many examples, some 
original, some doctored in over centuries in order to fit the whims of 
the current rulers, which should teach you how to act in society. But, 
not all societies believe in the same things.

China, for example, has a very different set of beliefs. Yet, they've 
advanced themselves from a world set apart from everyone else, to the 
next super power, to take the place of the US. Would the rate of their 
advance and "civilization" not suggest perhaps they have the right idea? 
The rest of the world has such levels of civil unrest, with the entire 
Mideast in a state of perpetual war. Yet China seems to be doing just 
fine. Odd, isn't it?

The morals of secular people are the same morals their families have, 
combined with what new things society may teach them. Many things are 
passed down from generation to generation. One of those things, is the 
basic building blocks of what it means to be a person: How to get along 
with other people. Sadly, something else that gets passed down, or 
modified to be introduced into the teachings, is hatred. Racism. 
Bigotry. Something nearly every last religion teaches and promotes. 
Always demanding to convert the non-believers, or to slay the heathens. 
Never to accept that one may have a different view and to learn from it, 
so you may learn more about yourself. To question the way, is to be 
lost. Isn't that what you've been taught? To simply be a lemming?

And as for your example of language, etcetera... Well, one can always go 
to learn a new language.

Oh, and before I forget... When was the last time an unquestioning 
believer of any religion, created something to help out the world? What 
was the last major medical breakthrough or surgery, pioneered by a 
zealot? What was the last technology that was designed, tested and put 
out into the world, to help everyone, that was created by someone who 
believed the faith of another, without the mind to question?

If it weren't for the secular heathens, heretics and non-believers in 
the world, you simply wouldn't be here today. Have you ever been ill? 
Christianity allowed only for the grace of God to save your life. Not 
for medicines or surgery. In the Renaissance, anyone who tried to 
perform an autopsy on a corpse, or even to do surgery on a living host, 
was excommunicated and great measures were made to wipe them from history.

Such media as you curse, hasn't been around for thousands of years. Yet, 
there have always been those who follow no Gods, while living good 
lives, even by today's standards. They didn't simply kill without value 
of life. Look at the secluded tribes in the rain forest. They follow no 
God, yet they live in peace with each other, just as they have for 
thousands of years.

Your logic is flawed beyond salvation. And your beliefs are based upon 
your logic. The line from one to the next is clear, so I'm sure you can 
figure out what that means about your beliefs and your religion.

Scream Machine wrote:
> If people are so against "religion", and claim they are secular, then where
> did you get your values, ideas and culture from then?
> A pack of wolves? I just love these atheists who think they "chose" which
> language and culture they were brought up in. As if every influence and
> value they have absorbed was all carefully controlled and approved of by
> them.
> 
> If you didn't get your values from religion then where did you get your
> values from then? Corporations that sold you them? The TV?
> 
> Well, if you get your values from corporations, then you like the idea of:
> - exploiting workers
> - laying off and firing workers to increase profits! yay!
> - Polluting the environment.
> - Hiring marketing agencies to help you sell things people don't need.
> - Creating drugs and products that are harmful to people without first
> testing them, because they are in such a rush to start profitting as soon as
> possible.
> - money! money! money!
> 
> I could go on. I'll save it for some other time. I've been meaning to write
> a post on our "Choice culture". Like these people who are in their
> mid-twenties go on this "me" thing where they all "choose" another religion,
> like buddhism, like it's a religious product - like they were choosing fries
> or salad with their meal. Simply put, people don't "choose" which mother
> tongue they are going to have growing up. We also don't choose our parents
> or how they parent us. But according to these "choose fascists", they think
> life is all about choices from the get-go, from the second you plop out of
> the womb. Or as if they "chose" when to be born. Not so. More on it later.
> 
> Secular people don't value anything. And if they do, then it's just
> materialism and money.
> 
> People shouldn't expect to get their values from corporations or the TV. If
> the tv show "Jerry Springer" is where people look for their values, then our
> culture is in dire straights. Or if they expect it to be sold to them in a
> product that some business is selling them, be afraid.
> And our government which has opted to seperate "church from state" is no
> where to look for values either. Canada has opted to go for the money -
> pandering and attracting foreign investment and newcomers and selling and
> whoring out it's values like a cheap $5 hooker.
> In Islam, religion *is* politics. Religion is simply ideology or ideas or
> values, or what's important to the people. In fact, judaism started out as
> laws, then morphed into "religion". Religion - law - politics - ideas -
> values - they're all the same thing. To say your going to separate "ideas"
> from politics is like saying your going to separate conjoined twins that
> share the same brain.
> 
> There simply must be some direction in peoples lives - some values and ideas
> that can be a beacon for lost souls.
> 
> People claiming to be secular - people who value nothing and claim to have
> "chosen" everything that has shaped and influenced them throughout their
> lives - may as well have been brought up by a pack of wolves. That's all
> they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Stings" <eatspam@yohospam.cpm> wrote in message
> news:Ux%ld.153512$df2.119257@edtnps89...
> 
>>I cant believe you said that without thinking, The world is full of
>>religious killers in fact its bible history. Anyone reading the bible
> 
> would
> 
>>realize Able and Cane knew God personally and yet a murder was committed
>>their values direct from God one could assume.
>>Kids have values long before being introduced to religious fairy tales.
>>Human secular values are basic to all humans regardless of brand of
> 
> religion
> 
>>of degree of atheism. Its part of being human knowing what is hot or cold
>>right and wrong. If you don't like they way someone is treating you
> 
> quickly
> 
>>realize its wrong and when someone treats you with warmth and comfort you
>>like it and realize its good, basic no religion involved.
>>Gerry Springier is full of religious freaks as is religion with its child
>>molesting leaders who seem not to have adopted the religious values you
>>think we all need to be good citizens.
>>They pass on the problem of molested kids are more likely to molest others
>>later in life do drugs and prison, nice values religion gave them.
>>
>>
>>"Scream Machine" <shake@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:xM_ld.224529$nl.53650@pd7tw3no...
>>
>>>So if you're so "secular", then where did you get your values from?
>>>Corporations? TV? Jerry Springer?
>>>
>>>Loser.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Ghost of IT" <ghost_of_the_hangman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:b22f8b35.0411141555.32b478c7@posting.google.com...
>>>
>>>>So as not to add miles to the previous thread.....
>>>>
>>>>The problem with using the Bible as a guidebook is:
>>>>
>>>>1) The current King James Bible is not the original bible.
>>>>2) When the current bible was created much was lost in translation
>>>>3) Many of the original scrolls and manuscripts have been left out.
>>>>4) The Vatican to this day has concealed much of the source of the
>>>>   old scrolls and other writings that contradict the bible for
>>>>   obvious reasons.
>>>>
>>>>More evil is done in the name of religion in general then by any
>>>>other vehicle of human history or experience.
>>>>
>>>>Using the bible as a source of morality that supposedly preaches
>>>>humanity, when "humanism" based philosphies are condemned as
>>>>heresy or heathenism is indeed hypocracy of the highest order.
>>>>It is also endemic of delusional behavior.
>>>>
>>>>Like it or not your logic is flawed, and thus your practices
>>>>and belief's are flawed.
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
>