🚀 go-pugleaf

Well the Holy Roman Empire - the Vatican began from a pack of wolves.
Romulus and Remulus?

"Scream Machine" <shake@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:8N0md.228369$%k.113699@pd7tw2no...
> If people are so against "religion", and claim they are secular, then 
> where
> did you get your values, ideas and culture from then?
> A pack of wolves? I just love these atheists who think they "chose" which
> language and culture they were brought up in. As if every influence and
> value they have absorbed was all carefully controlled and approved of by
> them.

God gave man the right to choose his own destiny, to decide for himself, 
right or wrong.
There are plenty of people who beleive in God, but can clearly see that 
religion is the golden calf.
Many people beleive that religion has nothing to do with God and is an 
invention of man.
It is ritualization and that is a social function, not a spiritual function.

It focuses a person on the rituals and not on God.
It is no wonder the more educated society becomes the abandon religion.
But few abandon God.

Judaism, Christianity, Moslemism can all be taced back to one man.
This man gave us the concept of God, the omniscient, omnipresent God.
And that seed of belief is planted in each and everyone of us, even the most 
outspoken athiest.

God is there, we have to tune in and connect. That's what Abraham did, and 
that is what he said people must do.
He smashed the statues. They were not God. They were merely symbols and 
falsely claimed faith aways from God.
It had to be smashed. Abraham didn't smash idols, he smashed religion. He 
replaced religion with his belief in God.
And he defined the nature of God for all to know.

Jesus was no different. He smashed religion too. He exposed it for it's very 
nature. And it's very nature is corruption.
Religion is the comercialization of faith. And that is wrong. That is what 
tossing the money lenders out is about.

>
> If you didn't get your values from religion then where did you get your
> values from then? Corporations that sold you them? The TV?

Please. Our law is founded on Judeo/Christian morals.
We used to chop people's hands off for stealing too. A good Biblical moral.
There is morality that is an abomination to humanity in the Bible, and there 
is plenty of universal morality.
And there is a universal morality. We knwo that because there were/are 
actually societies that have never had Judeo/christian morality yet still 
shared common morality. For instance, all societies have consequence for 
murder. That's why it's in the Bible.

Morality is based on human behavior. Kill somebody, see how upset people 
get. That predates the bible. It predates writing.
People kill and its upsetting when your loved one is the victim. Since 
people are social animals there will be reaction. If some guy rapes the 
woman you love, mother of your children, you are going to be upset. It's not 
to hard to understand that morality is defined by behavior and interactions 
of behaviors towards one another.

I mean keep in mind the origin of waving hello was to show that you were not 
brandishing a weapon. Behaviors define what is moral and what is not, and 
that ultimately will be defined by society and how it reacts - not God. 
People don't behave like they did in what ever B.C. or even 1000 A.D. Some 
morality is constant, others change as society changes.

Corporations usually sell morality that is an ideal. Media can influence and 
does influence. Society continues to change and evolve.
Morality will change and evolve. Like it's not okay to kill diobedient 
children, or even beat them within and inch of their life. In many ways we 
are more moral than we have ever been in history. And in many ways we are 
freer. For instance we are not forced to go to church, or smashed in the 
back of the head witha  mace like object should we doze off because the 8 
hours of Latin yacking has put you to sleep. Hmm old meaning to smash it 
into your thick skull.



>
> Well, if you get your values from corporations, then you like the idea of:
> - exploiting workers
> - laying off and firing workers to increase profits! yay!
> - Polluting the environment.
> - Hiring marketing agencies to help you sell things people don't need.
> - Creating drugs and products that are harmful to people without first
> testing them, because they are in such a rush to start profitting as soon 
> as
> possible.
> - money! money! money!


Yes, and that means jobs, that means a stronger economy that can generate 
more tax revenues that can pay for all sorts of wonderful things, including 
giving nice big tax write-offs to corporations for investing in 
reducing/eliminating pollution in their manufacturing processes, incentives 
for creating jobs.

And it is a mistake to worship money too. But you gotta pay the rent or 
mortgages. There are too many of us now to go back to the land and farm, or 
hunt. So come on into the modern world. A place where they even sell 
religion.

>
> I could go on. I'll save it for some other time. I've been meaning to 
> write
> a post on our "Choice culture". Like these people who are in their
> mid-twenties go on this "me" thing where they all "choose" another 
> religion,
> like buddhism, like it's a religious product - like they were choosing 
> fries
> or salad with their meal. Simply put, people don't "choose" which mother
> tongue they are going to have growing up. We also don't choose our parents
> or how they parent us. But according to these "choose fascists", they 
> think
> life is all about choices from the get-go, from the second you plop out of
> the womb. Or as if they "chose" when to be born. Not so. More on it later.


No more like they know their religion is full of shit, and they still have 
that seed of belief, and rather than reject, they seek a new path, one they 
hope will lead them to God. It is the failure of their own religion to show 
them that path. Some religions are not judgemental of others. Imagine that? 
People tink they need religion because they don't know where or how or what 
to do. If you are born into a relgion, you become indocrinated and usually 
it is just accepted. Most people inherit a religion. Some people chose a 
religion.
But religion has nothing to do with God. Seems the people Like Abraham, 
Buddha, Mohamed, etc, knew that well.

And rather do what these guys do, they make a fan club, make up fancy rules, 
cute ceremonies, and then other people say, hey there must be something to 
that, think I will mindlessly follow them. Then the fans die, their kids 
die, their kids die, and before you know it what they have are the fancy 
little rules and stupid little ceremonies and that's what ends up being 
important. And what is realyl important is long forgotten, or ingnored. And 
if man is really the spirit how do you knwo we don't chose our mother 
tongue, our parents, or location? After all we have free will. Why would 
that be so infathomable?


> Secular people don't value anything. And if they do, then it's just
> materialism and money.

Bullshit. They may value their family, friends, and community.
They may chapion human rights, or animal rights.
How can you make such an ignorant statement.
And what I love about christianity is that they know they have no right to 
judge others, yet they continually judge others.
Judge not others or your yourself shall so be judged.

You know what that means, no free ride, you get judged just like the 
non-believers and if you sinned baby, you are going to hell.
Shall so you be judged.

> People shouldn't expect to get their values from corporations or the TV. 
> If
> the tv show "Jerry Springer" is where people look for their values, then 
> our
> culture is in dire straights. Or if they expect it to be sold to them in a
> product that some business is selling them, be afraid.
> And our government which has opted to seperate "church from state" is no
> where to look for values either. Canada has opted to go for the money -
> pandering and attracting foreign investment and newcomers and selling and
> whoring out it's values like a cheap $5 hooker.
> In Islam, religion *is* politics. Religion is simply ideology or ideas or
> values, or what's important to the people. In fact, judaism started out as
> laws, then morphed into "religion". Religion - law - politics - ideas -
> values - they're all the same thing. To say your going to separate "ideas"
> from politics is like saying your going to separate conjoined twins that
> share the same brain.

No, peole don't tune in to Jerry Springer to get their values.
They tune in to laugh at people that are too dumb to have values.
That is comedy. Figures you'd take it seriously. Sorry, but I don't want to 
be a Christian state.
Most Christians don't want that either. They don't want to live in Iran. Get 
our point?
And there is a Christian party, but it doesn't do very well at the polls.

Religion has no role in governance. Take care of people's spirituality, and 
leave those kids alone!


> There simply must be some direction in peoples lives - some values and 
> ideas
> that can be a beacon for lost souls.

Yes, many things can be a beacon for lost souls, but that doesn't mean it's 
connectng them with God.

> People claiming to be secular - people who value nothing and claim to have
> "chosen" everything that has shaped and influenced them throughout their
> lives - may as well have been brought up by a pack of wolves. That's all
> they deserve.

Wow the magnitude of Christian compassion. Why do you keep saying secular 
people value nothing, or if they do only material or monetary things? What 
cartoon characters are you trying to sell here? Sorry that dog don't bark.