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2 total messages Started by Sheila King Wed, 20 Jan 1993 02:03
RE: INTEGRALS
#489
Author: Sheila King
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 02:03
47 lines
2435 bytes
Brian,

Thanks for your post on Mike Bouldan's question about the integral of
1/x from -2 to 2. I found it quite helpful. Let me try to restate what I
*think* you're saying, and you tell me if I've got it.

-> The easiest example to understand is the infinite series
->
->       1 + -1 + 1 + -1 + 1 + -1 + ...
->
-> Using arguments not so very different from yours, we can either say
-> that this is the same as
->
->       (1 + -1) + (1 + -1) + (1 + -1) + ... = 0+0+0+... = 0
->
-> or say that the same series is equal to
->       1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + ... = 1+0+0+0+... = 1
->
-> Nothing is wrong with the manipulation in either case; the trouble is
-> that they don't prove "the answer is 0" or "the answer is 1."  They
-> prove "if there is an answer then it's 0" and "if there is an answer
-> then it's 1."  No contradiction there, since there isn't an answer;
-> the series diverges.

So, what you're saying is that any time a sum or difference involves a
divergent series, there is no answer to the sum or difference? Is this
true in all cases?

-> You can't say "infinity minus infinity is zero"; it could just as
-> well be any finite number (e.g., the number of counting numbers minus
-> the number of positive integers is 1), or infinite (e.g., the number
-> of integers minus the number of positive integers).

But there are techniques for evaluating limits that tend to infinity
minus infinity. These are commonly taught in first year calculus in the
chapter including L'Hopitals rule. How are these different from this
example?

I gotta make sure I know my stuff before I do this next year...

Sheila
coming to you from Diamond Bar, CA (in Los Angeles County)
                                                                                                                  

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Re: INTEGRALS
#491
Author: Brian Harvey
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:45
30 lines
1778 bytes
Sheila.King@f315.n103.z1.fidonet.org (Sheila King) writes:
>So, what you're saying is that any time a sum or difference involves a
>divergent series, there is no answer to the sum or difference? Is this
>true in all cases?

Right -- this is the *definition* of "divergent"!

>But there are techniques for evaluating limits that tend to infinity
>minus infinity. These are commonly taught in first year calculus in the
>chapter including L'Hopitals rule. How are these different from this
>example?

Those are limits of functions that are well-behaved except at one
point.  For example, if you take lim [x->0] (sin x)/x then you are
looking at a situation in which (sin 0.0001)/0.0001 is well-defined,
and all those values approach a limit.  And even then, you can't say
that the limit *is* the value of (sin 0)/0.  That expression has no
value.

In the original question, the integral is the lim [delta x -> 0] of a
sum of areas of tall skinny rectangles.  Each finite value of delta x
already is problematic, because each includes one or two rectangles
right at the y axis that are infinitely tall.

The best you can say is that 

	lim [a -> 0] <integral from -2 to -a> + <integral from a to 2>

is zero.  That's true; as a approaches zero the two integrals have larger
and larger magnitudes, but their sum is still zero for any nonzero a.
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