🚀 go-pugleaf

In article <41468.2B637B25@puddle.fidonet.org> Katrina.Teibel@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Katrina Teibel) writes:
>     Ask yourself, "Is it natural to be attracted to the same sex?" 
> 
>My answer to this question is no.  I have a personal belief...
>     Reproduction is the purpose of sex.  It is placed in
>scientific evidence that a female and a male must share a sex cell
>to reproduce.  Therefore, it is natural to be attracted to the
>opposite sex, and abnormal to feel a sex drive twards the same sex. 
> 
>I don't know if I have made my point clearly, but I am speaking
>scientifically.
>     Whatever theory of homosexuality being a form af brain damage,
>I could easily believe it.

Katrina:
	Whatever your personal belief may be about what is "natural,"
I believe that if you look into the literature on animal sexual
behavior, you will find that homosexual behavior is not uncommon among
animals.  Wild animals are presumably presumably incapable of
"immoral" behavior, so it seems that if one wants to compare
homosexuality with what is "natural," it makes sense to look outward
toward the world that exists, and not inward toward one's own
perception of what constitutes a natural act. 

"Katrina" == Katrina.Teibel@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Katrina Teibel)
"Jeff" == jchap@athena.mit.edu (Jeffrey W Chapman)

Katrina> Ask yourself, "Is it natural to be attracted to the same sex?"

To answer this question accurately, you would have to first define
what you mean by "natural."  If you use the most "obvious" definition,
ie. something which exists in nature without human intervention, then
the answer to your question is most assuradely yes.  Homosexuality has
been observed in nature on many occasions, and in fact as a
comparison, while the Kinsey Institute figures normally sited for
humans is that 10% of the population is homosexual in some manner, the
figure for the female pigeon is 15% as observed in nature.

Katrina>My answer to this question is no.  I have a personal belief...

Personal beliefs are a wonderful foundation to live your life by, and
I wish you luck, but to judge another human being on a belief that
runs contradictory to "nature" is unfair to both sides.

Katrina> Reproduction is the purpose of sex. 

I believe more accurately it would be "a purpose," as I do not think
that most people have sex simply for the purpose of reproduction.  To
me, sex is something much more 'emotional' than the simple act of
reproduction.  To me it means sharing something with someone that I
don't share with "just anyone," or in fact in this case with ANYONE
else.  It also for me shows how much I care for that person.

Katrina> It is placed in scientific evidence that a female and a male
Katrina> must share a sex cell to reproduce.

This doesn't mean you must have sex, as there are many other ways to
product the fertilized egg without sex.

Katrina> Therefore, it is natural to be attracted to the opposite sex,
Katrina> and abnormal to feel a sex drive twards the same sex.

Why?  It might be natural for you to feel attracted to the opposite
sex, but I don't think that such a statement can be made for everyone
in the world.  Perhaps it wouldn't be "good" if everyone were
homosexual, as it might inhibit the survival of the species, but to
argue that sex == reproduction reduces the human being to a level
equal to the average animal, and I don't think that is what you're
intending to do.

Katrina> I don't know if I have made my point clearly, but I am speaking
Katrina> scientifically.

The only scientific evidence given is that it requires in SOME form, a
male and a female to reproduce, what this has to do with the argument
against homosexuality, I haven't deduced, unless you're saying that
that's all people ever do.

I think you're speaking from an emotional and perhaps even religious
view, which will color your opinions with that of others. 

Katrina> Whatever theory of homosexuality being a form af brain
Katrina> damage, I could easily believe that.

Why? Because you're not that way, doesn't mean it's wrong.  People
have been homosexual for thousands of years, and they will continue to
be.  Homosexuality, if you look at SCIENTIFIC evidence, is beginning
to look more and more like genetics, and less and less like anything
else.  It just happens, it's nature, you live, you survive, you are
happy if you want, depressed if you want. 

If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so on the level that
it is best discussed on, a scientific level wihtout the morality so oft
used to damn the "unwashed".

Chris

-- 
| Chris Petrilli                                             ____
| petrilli@gnu.ai.mit.edu             ``Quayle is a bozoe.'' \  /
| I don't even speak for myself.                              \/

In article <41468.2B637B25@puddle.fidonet.org>
  Katrina.Teibel@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Katrina Teibel) writes:

>I have a personal belief that all living things have males and
>females for a reason.  (That is of course if they are not asexual.)

As humans we have an oddly parochial view of the universe.  Your
statement above is not even remotely close to correct even with the
qualification.  A vast array even of multi-cellular life forms are
hermaphroditic.  There are many organisms that change sex during their
lives.  There are many that have different forms in their life cycles,
alternating between sexual and asexual reproduction.  There are many
organisms that don't reproduce themselves at all (although of course
other members of their colonies do).  The human pattern is not a
template that you can generalize for all life histories.  I suspect
that life on earth is much much more diverse than you currently think.

>     Reproduction is the purpose of sex.  

Personally I think that you shouldn't look to animals to make any such
judgements, but there is a fair amount of literature about our closest
kin that suggests this isn't a well-founded statement.  In bonobos
(aka pygmy chimpanzees) it seems, judging by their actions, that the
"purpose" of sex (both homosexual and heterosexual) is to maintain
group cohesiveness.

>It is placed in scientific evidence that a female and a male must
>share a sex cell to reproduce.  Therefore, it is natural to be
>attracted to the opposite sex, and abnormal to feel a sex drive twards
>the same sex.
>
>I don't know if I have made my point clearly, but I am speaking
>scientifically.

Partially you are, but you're drawing your conclusion without using a
substantial amount of relevant data.  If you really want to be
scientific about the topic, you might want to begin by defining
"purpose".

>Katrina

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Mickey Rowe     (rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu)