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  To: alt.comp.virus,alt.comp.a
John Slade <hhitman86@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:ILj5o.44119$4B7.2363@newsfe16.iad: 

> On 8/1/2010 8:24 AM, Dustin wrote:
>> John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>  wrote in
>> news:i32s10$653$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>> On 7/31/2010 4:21 PM, Dustin wrote:
>>>> John Slade<hhitman86@pacbell.net>   wrote in
>>>> news:L0p4o.32466$OU6.4877@newsfe20.iad:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/29/2010 1:40 PM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>>>>> From: "John Slade"<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> | On 7/29/2010 3:24 AM, David H. Lipman wrote:
>>>>>>>> From: "John Slade"<hhitman86@pacbell.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> | On 7/27/2010 11:17 PM, RJK wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>          You should know there is malware out there that will
>>>>> trash the registry and it's backup. It will require some sort of
>>>>> reinstall to get the system back working. I found it very rare
>>>>> that I need to do a full reformat and reinstall because of
>>>>> malware. Some malware will also corrupt system files and when
>>>>> you remove them with scanners, it will make the installation
>>>>> unbootable. This is yet another reason professionals will make a
>>>>> backup if possible before removing infections.
>>>>
>>>> What software do you use for the backup?
>>>
>>>        I will either use Acronis' or Paragon's backup software
>>> depending on the situation.
>>>
>>>> Are you storing the backup on
>>>> read only media or a hard drive that could fail for any reason?
>>>
>>>       You mean WORM(Write Once/Read Many) media don't you? That
>>> media can fail also. No media is perfect. I store the backup on
>>> business or enterprise grade HDs and will transfer to other
>>> media if the customer wants that backup. If it's a large backup
>>> they will have to pay me for it. Tell me what software and
>>> hardware would you use to backup your customer's HD before you
>>> start removing malware?
>>
>> I haven't heard the acronym WORM in years... Damn, you have been
>> around a long time. :) I was thinking of cd-r or perhaps dvd-r
>> material. 
> 
>        It would be OK for DVD-R if the backup is small. But 
> swapping 20 or more DVDs is a pain.
> 
>>
>> It depends. When I was working at a computer shop; I'd either use
>> norton ghost corp edition or the hardware drive cloning device we
>> had at the time.
> 
>        I rarely use Ghost these days, it used to be the only 
> thing I ever used.
> 
> 
>> I really didn't see much point in cloning a malware drive
>> for malware removal; I wasn't stupid enough to trash my backups of
>> the registry or important files. besides, I wrote several utilities
>> to assist me in verifying various windows dll/exe files were still
>> intact and okay for reuse.
>>
> 
>       Yea that's good for you, but when you're working for 
> someone else and they have important data they want to save, I 
> will backup. Most of the time the customer doesn't have a 
> backup. A lot of times the customer has a HD that's five or six 
> years old and they really need a backup done. Then there are the 
> times when I'm working for a young person and they don't want a 
> backup they just want the drive wiped and they want the OS 
> installed.

Theres your odd attitude again. What makes you think I wasn't working 
for someone else when I did those things? Obviously since I didn't own 
the shop, I was working for someone else.

Btw, What certifications do you presently hold? I'm just lowly 
A+/network+ (back when that stupid thing was still considered worth the 
paper it's printed on). Are you MCSE? 

I completely understand the backup scenarios..


>> We would typically reserve cloning drives for hardware failure
>> signs. Although, a customer could have us clone a drive for a
>> malware issue if they so desired. By default, we always copied
>> docs, favorites, emails etc before doing anything... But, you know,
>> different places have different policies.
> 
>      I work mostly with home users and small businesses and a 
> lot of times they have personal stuff they want to save. So I'll 
> do a quick backup of that data and then I'll do the full backup. 
> Sometimes they just want a reinstall. There are times when they 
> tell me not to backup because the data isn't important. In 
> David's response he seems worried about saving data so I 
> wondered why he wouldn't backup.

I see. It's the corp customers who can be.. a bit, on the anal side at 
times. At the end of the day tho, you do whatever customer wants. 
 
>>
>> Why do you spend the additional time to clone an entire drive for a
>> malware removal job?
> 
>      It doesn't take that long most of the time and it's a lot 
> safer for the user's data. In most cases it actually takes 
> longer to install, upgrade and reinstall software for the 
> customer. Most of the time I backup less than 150GB.

I'm just wondering what you mean by safer for the users data then I 
guess. If it's a malware issue, the users data itself shouldn't be 
affected much if at all; it's the applications and little.. extras that 
may be of concern.
 
>> I understand. It just seemed as if you were being a wiseass towards
>> David, from my POV. I didn't personally see any need in doing that.
>> We can all be professional and civil here.
> 
>      David was being a wiseass himself and I can understand why 
> he didn't respond. He seemed worried about losing data by simply 
> removing the system restore points so I naturally wondered why, 
> a backup can solve this problem. I guess he realized it was a 
> good idea so then he got snippy.

Well, along with potentially good dlls you might want to use to avoid 
having to reinstall; comes several stages of the systems registry 
hives. All valuable if your into recovering the system, as opposed to 
wiping and starting over. I see no reason to obliterate the restore 
points right away; They still contain potentially useful data to me. 

What seperates some professionals from others is the ability to restore 
the system without resorting to wiping and reloading as really, anybody 
could do that. In many cases, not all, but many, you don't have to wipe 
and reload the entire system to get rid of the malware. 

Could you imagine, reloading the system to get rid of antivirusxp2010? 
You'd agree, that would be an incompetent action to take?
>>
>>>         I use software others have written. I'm not a software
>>> engineer. I'm a professional computer repair person. I find that
>>> competence in one profession such as software engineering
>>> doesn't translate into something else like tech support. I've
>>> been repairing computers for close to 25 years and have learned
>>> a lot. One thing I've learned is a backup saves a lot of trouble
>>> and allows for different approaches to be tried.
>>
>> Well, a backup is a good way of having an escape route should
>> something go wrong. :) From a software aspect tho, I haven't really
>> encountered much malware that would justify the time I spent on
>> imaging the drive first. I wasn't in charge of billing tho, so that
>> may have played a part in that.
> 
>      I don't work for any company I work freelance. Like I said 
> most backups are small and usually take from 20 minutes to a 
> couple of hours. I don't charge by the hour I charge by the job.

Ahh, well.. I worked for one shop for just over a decade.. had some 
prior real world experience from other shops voc and what I did as a 
kiddo... I'll do the freelance thing when it's necessary, but I don't 
halfass the job. Like I said, I've been doing this ten years or so less 
than you and have yet to lose anyones data; providing they called me in 
time... 
>>
>>>         So tell me what products have you and David Lipman
>>> written and where can I check them out?
>>
>> I've written all kinds of old utility style apps, as you've been
>> around so long you might know a few of them.. Cmoscon, encode,
>> delock, and various others. If your into crypto/security, you might
>> even know the old dos file/freespace wiping app called NuKE and/or
>> possibly CryptX. 
>>
> 
>      I've heard of some of those.
> 
>> In more recent times, I developed an antimalware scanner (that's
>> why I found your description on how they worked amusing. hehehe)
>> called BugHunter. I did a stint as a malware researcher for an app
>> called Malwarebytes antimalware..
>>
> 
>           I don't know why you would find it funny because a 
> virus writer will use anything to hide a virus. What smarter way 
> is to hide them in each and every folder in "system volume 
> information"? I do believe that what the system had was a 
> variant of the Virtumonde trojan. If you did research on malware 
> then you know virus writers will take existing malware and 
> modify it. I found one thing to be true in the world of malware, 
> NOBODY knows everything about every malware variant out there. 
> You can believe me or not, it doesn't matter.

Well, I found it funny from the point of view of a former virus writer 
turned whitehat. Does that make any sense to you?

Why would I spend the time to hide a virus in a folder, when I could 
choose files? You could just delete me if I stored myself in a folder 
in a binary format alone. If I reside in your files instead, I'm alot 
harder to deal with.

I know some virus writers have used existing code and modified that 
yes. However, the majority of the crap I've seen passing for malware 
these days typically isn't actually viral in nature. A virus is no 
accident, ya see. 

It's entirely possible the individual does have a virut varient, I 
haven't seen the sample to confirm or deny that. Based only on what Ant 
has written up about it tho, doesn't seem to indicate virut; but 
something possibly forked from the same original codebase.

How as a virus would I be able to hide if you examined the drive from a 
system that didn't start off of it? It's a rhetorical question... :)


-- 
"I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. They are so unlike 
your Christ."  - author unknown.

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