🚀 go-pugleaf

>> The following is from a conversation  by a reporter for the wall
>> street journal with Islamic students in egypt.
>
>Oh, yeah.  The Wall Street Journal.  Now THAT's not biased.  <snort>

Are you saying that these students were manipulated by this journalist
into saying these things? Are you saying this journalist is a liar? Is
the journalist in some way misquoting these students? Is he
misrepresenting what they said? Don't you think these conversations
are recorded, for that very purpose? How is reporting these informal,
non-politicized, unofficial positions, factually, misleading? Tell me,
is the official palestinian response denouncing the WTC attack as
horrible terrorism a true reflection of the majority of palestinians?
Like the those palestinians in Gaza, the west bank,Wayne  and Paterson
New Jersey, Hempstead Long Island who were celebrating the act in the
streets. You can take whatever position you want, officially. Behaving
the exactly opposite way destroys your credibility.
> 
>> [Excerpts] Affluent Egyptians in Cairo Gloat Over Attacks While Eating
>> Big
>> Macs
>> By YAROSLAV TROFIMOV
>> Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
> 
>> CAIRO, Egypt -- As the Bush administration works to draw moderate Arab
>> states into its coalition against terrorism, it must consider the mood
>> at a
>> gleaming McDonald's outlet here on Arab League Street, a cosmopolitan
>> avenue
>> in a well-heeled neighborhood of Cairo.
> 
>> Sandwiched between a Rolex watch store and a BMW car dealership, the
>> restaurant is packed with affluent university students dressed in
>> American
>> garb and aware of the billions of dollars in foreign aid that the U.S.
>> has
>> pumped into Egypt. It's the sort of place where one would expect to
>> find
>> sympathy for the American cause.
> 
>> But listen to what they're saying.
> 
>> Sitting under a poster advertising "Crispy and Delicious McWings,"
>> Radwa Abdallah, an 18-year-old university student, is explaining that
>> she
>> rejoiced when she learned that thousands of Americans had probably
>> died in
>> the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
>> "Everyone
>> celebrated," Ms. Abdallah says, as her girlfriends giggle. "People
>> honked in
>> the streets, cheering that finally America got what it truly
>> deserved."
> 
>> Fellow student Raghda El Mahrouqi agrees: "I just hope there were a
>> lot of Jews in that building," she says. Sherihan Ammar, an aspiring
>> doctor
>> in elaborate makeup and tight T-shirt, sums up her feelings this way:
>> "America was just too full of itself," she says with a dismissive
>> gesture.
> 
>> [rest of article deleted]
>
>Yeah.  Eating the meat which one has no confidence as to how it was
>slaughtered.  A girl wearing showy makeup and a tight T-shirt.  That's
>representative of Islam for ya.  Uh-huh.  

No, you miss the point. These are moderate, educated islamic students.
Even with their education, and moderate practices they still espouse
the hatred of the fundamentalist muslims. So you're now saying that
muslims who don't keep kosher, or women who show their faces with
makeup, and wear whatever they want are not good Islamic examples? Are
you saying that muslims are  not allowed to think or act out of the
box? Are you saying that female muslims shouldn't have these freedoms?
Which represents the islamic world, these moderate, educated students,
or the fundamentalist, uneducated moslems? What about moderation, and
tolerance?  I thought they should be given the same respect, and
treatment as all others. Isn't that what you've been asserting islam
is about, especially on the website you keep linking to?
> 
>> So I guess the muslim world is tolerant of other religions and people,
>> as Iman would lead us to believe. I guess their official beliefs vary
>> greatly from practice. Maybe, the world of islam really is rallied
>> behind us? YEAH RIGHT.
>
>Let's imagine for a moment that I, as a muslim, represent the muslim
>world, and you, as an American, represent America.
>
>Now I have both academically and *experientially* studied Islam for over
>ten years, lived abroad in the Middle East for about five, living,
>working, breaking bread, crying and laughing among muslims.  If one were
>to describe to me the Tuesday Terror long before 9/11, I could have told
>you that whoever would perpetrate such an act would have acted anathema
>to Islam.
>
>I took a vacation to Turkey last month.  Arrived in Istanbul on 9/8. 
>Three days later, Turkish media were inundated with news from America. 
>I witnessed first-hand deep pain and sorrow among the muslims of Turkey
>for what had happened.  I witnessed muslims who decried the terrorism,
>who *knew* it was heinous and unjustified. 

I can point out a large number of instances where muslims behaved in
exactly the opposite way. While I'm not calling you a liar, it seems
that there is more than enough evidence of behavior that absolutely
contadicts your statements. 
>
>Yes, I am aware of those "muslims" who say otherwise.  And they are
>sadly mistaken, their reaction bearing more the influence of dialectic
>materialist philosophy than one of Islam.  

Why did Malaysia, and Indonesia fail to vote in favor of condemning
the WTC attack at the Asian conference, last week? Let me
guess....it's that the minority of the muslims in these countries
would revolt and protest, and the majority would back them for
condemning the terrorist action. Nah...could it be that they are now
islamic countries, and the majority of muslims in these countries
would revolt? The condemnation of the attack has nothing to do with
condoning the present US course of action, yet they wouldn't condemn
the WTC attack. The truth, that the majority (muslims) wouldn't allow
them to condemn the attack is not valid? Are you telling me that there
was some other reason, other than political instability for going
against the Muslim belief that the attack was good, and justifiable?
Yes, we are talking about the majority of the muslims in Malaysia and
Indonesia, not some non-representative minority. This, even though
Malaysia is a moderate Islamic state. Malaysia is also filled with a
highly educated population, so you can't argue that it is only
fundamentalists, or poorly educated muslims.
>
>Now you have a choice : you can decide which of us is more
>representative of Islam and proceed accordingly.  You can decide to
>listen and give credence to those -- both muslim AND non-muslim -- who
>would love nothing more than to pit muslims vs. Americans and America
>vs. Islam.
>

I don't care how many publications you can link to. It's absolutely
meaningless. I can counter with a whole slew of my own articles with
contradictory evidence. You also didn't address my pointing out that
your mulsimamerica site was condemning other people, namely
christians, and jews for their beliefs, while claiming that islam is
about plurality, and tolerance, and that it allows for others to
practice what they want.
>
>> but there are an awful lot of poorly educated muslim
>> extremists, and propaganda believing islamic people.
>
>Eliminate the word "muslim" and "islamic" from your statement and I can
>guarantee you that more people will find it more convincing and less
>inciteful.

Again, I've also pointed out moderate and educated muslims that share
the same beliefs. So yes, the use of pointing out muslims and islamic
people is valid for my statement with not all, but the majority.
Therefore, people WILL find it convincing, and more inSIGHTful.
>
>If you're *really* objective and neutral, you'll identify the problem as
>a *human* one that cuts across all boundaries.

If you really want a true dialogue, answer all of my points, and don't
include rhetoric, or meaningless, vague nonsensical language.

BTW...a few months ago I had pointed out the koran allows for killing
a newlywed for having had premarital sex. There was a muslim (qatra)
who denied it. qatra, claimed that I was spouting nonsense and laughed
me off as a lunatic. It turns out that in an islamic country in africa
a woman who is pregnant was just sentenced to death for what? Try...
for having premarital sex. I guess that in an islamic country, that is
run as a theocracy, tolerance is really practiced

Oh...and in another part of this thread, iman claimed that the first
democracy was created as a muslim republic in 622. May I remind iman
of a greek named Democritus.  Did the greeks not have a constitution?
Oh the islamic one was the first ever in human history. YEAH
RIGHT...Besides, iman doesn't realize that by definition, a theocracy
is not, nor can be a democracy.
> 
>was-salaam,
>iman@merr.com