Article View: misc.consumers.house
Article #6160Re: Water Efficient Toilets
From: Alan Frisbie
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1991 09:48
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1991 09:48
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15816 bytes
Since several people requested my notes on installing an Ultra-Low
Flush toilet, I am posting it here.
I bought the Kohler Wellworth Lite (model K3421-PB), which was top-rated
by Consumer Reports in July, 1990. The equivalent elongated bowl
model is the K3420-EB. There is one mistake in the article,
however. A picture is identified as being a Sears 5560. Actually,
it is the Kohler 3421. As you will see, it is about two inches
taller than my old American Standard toilets, with a different shape
to the tank. It can best be described as "wide at the shoulders and
narrow at the hips".
CR quoted a price of $240, but I got it at Snyder-Diamond (a Los
Angeles area discount plumbing store) for $108.88. This is a plain
(not elongated) bowl white toilet and it uses only 1.6 gallons per
flush. This price does *not* include a seat, but they have more
varieties than you can shake a stick at, priced from approximately $5
to more than you want to spend. If your present one is in good
shape, you can certainly reuse it.
To address a concern some people have about water pressure, there is
no problem with this model. It uses the conventional tank which is
refilled slowly after a flush. The toilets which are pressure
sensitive are the tankless models, probably including most "low-boy"
models.
While at the plumbing store, I discovered that the Los Angeles
Department of Water and Power was offering a rebate program for
installing Ultra-Low Flush toilets -- $100 for each toilet! There are
a few very simple requirements:
o Be a LA DWP residential customer (single-family, condo, townhome,
duplex, or apartment).
o Purchase a LA DWP approved Ultra-Low-Flush toilet on or after
13-Feb-90 as a replacement for a non-ULF toilet.
o Provide the original sales receipt
o Provide the make and model of each ULF toilet
o Consent to a post-installation verification
o Cooperate with a DWP survey on the program
o NOTE: New construction and room additions do not qualify.
You get a $100 rebate for every non-ULF toilet you replace. It is
OK (and easy) to do the job yourself. The brochure has a list of
approved toilets. For more information, call the DWP at (213) 481-5800
or (800) 722-1122.
You will have to buy a few odds and ends to do the job: a wax ring
seal ($0.99), flex tubing to reach the water valve ($3.50), new "T"
bolts to hold it to the floor ($0.99), heavy-duty washers to replace
the ones that come with the T-bolts ($0.20), and plumbers putty to
seal around the base ($1.29). Buy extras of everything. The cost
is low, and it will save you a trip to the store in the middle of the
job. If you don't use them, save them for future repairs. Any good
home repair/improvement book has instructions on how to do the job.
The tools that I used included:
o Large adjustable wrench (to remove water inlet to tank)
o Small wrench (to remove nuts holding toilet to floor)
o Hammer (see below)
o Putty knife (to remove old wax, etc.)
o Utility knife (to trim vinyl floor tile)
o Heavy-duty snips (to trim carpet)
o Woodworking chisel (to trim carpet holding strips)
o Hacksaw (to trim T-bolts to final size)
o File (to clean up after sawing T-bolts)
I don't know how much a plumber would charge to do the job, but a
clerk at Snyder-Diamond thought that it would be around $40. They
might be unhappy about installing a toilet they didn't sell, however.
Given the rebate, the savings on the water bill, the water conservation,
and the ease of installing one, this is a real winner of a deal!
Summary:
o Installation -- Took longer than expected, but not difficult.
o Performance -- Excellent.
o Satisfaction -- Very high.
I am very happy with this toilet. It is not noisy, like some ULF
toilets are rumored to be. It actually sounds quieter than my old
American Standard and the refill cycle takes a lot less time.
It is amazingly good for the small amount of water it uses. In the
first week, only once did it require more than one flush to completely
clear the bowl.
After using the first one for a week, my wife and I installed two
more, one in very cramped quarters. She had never done any kind of
plumbing work before, but did 90% of the work on one of them. Later
she said, "I have lost any respect I ever had for toilets."
Details:
Removing the old toilet was very easy; in fact, the easiest part of
the job. After turning off the water at the wall valve and flushing
the toilet (holding the handle down to empty the tank), I used a cup
and a sponge to empty the remaining water from the tank. Removing
the tube between the valve and the tank caused a tiny water spill, but
the sponge caught most of it. The two bolts securing the tank to
the bowl came off easily and the tank was carried out to the trash.
Time: only a few minutes.
Knowing that sewer gas is not pleasant, I opened the window and put a
fan in the doorway, blowing into the bathroom.
Removing the bowl was where the first problem arose. After dipping
the water out of the bowl, I tried to remove the two nuts holding the
bowl to the floor (actually the drain flange, but that isn't obvious
when you start). Unfortunately, the nuts would not come off. The
bolts simply turned (see Lesson #1 below). Given the choice of
cutting the nuts or breaking the toilet base, I got my hammer and
chisel. A few hammer strokes later (fun!) and the toilet was ready
to carry out to the trash.
Warning: After picking up the old toilet, DO NOT SET IT DOWN inside
the house! There will be a large mass of dirty old wax on the
bottom, and it is impossible to remove from a carpet, etc.
Lesson #1: When buying your new "Closet bolts" (T-bolts), make
sure that they have the shoulder that fits into the
slot in the drain flange which prevents them from
turning. Not all stores carry this style, but they
are worth the search if you ever have to remove a toilet.
Snyder-Diamond carries them.
After removing the old toilet bowl, it is important to stuff a large
rag into the drain pipe to keep sewer gas where it belongs.
Cleaning the old wax, dirt, and general gunk from the floor and drain
flange was not difficult, but certainly messy and disgusting. This
operation took a large percentage of the time.
After cleaning, I set the new toilet on the flange (rag still in
place) to check for fit. Here there was a problem. There were two
layers of floor tile (vinyl/asphalt(?)): the original which was
installed before the old toilet, and a later layer which was cut to
fit around the toilet. Since the new toilet had a different shape,
I needed to cut away some of the top tile layer.
The second and third toilets took longer than the first because the
bathrooms had carpet. Not only did this require cutting the carpet,
but removing pieces of the "bed-of-nails" strips around the toilets.
Useful tools include a utility knife, heavy-duty snips, and a sharp
woodworking chisel.
Lesson #2: Before attempting to fit a new toilet, cut a piece of
cardboard to the exact shape of the new toilet bottom.
Depending on the particular circumstances, an "inside"
or an "outside" template may work better for you. Be
sure to mark the location of the bolt holes so you can
line it up with the flange.
Lesson #3: Carpet in a bathroom ranks up there as one of the
worst ideas in homebuilding.
Lesson #4: If there is any question about the water valve, now is
the time to replace it. Note that there are several
possible types of pipe fittings for the wall outlet.
Get the right one. If there is any doubt, turn off the
water outside, remove the valve, and take it to the
plumbing store. Don't forget to replace the chrome
ring that goes on the pipe where it exits the wall.
It will be all rusted or painted over. Replace it now
or regret it the next time you repaint/remodel your
bathroom.
The new T-bolts were then installed and held in place on the flange
with the thin nuts provided. The new toilet was turned upside down
and the wax ring placed around the outlet. NOTE: If the wax ring is
the type with an integral plastic "horn", the horn must face away from
the toilet (that is, down the drain). Following a recomendation in a
book, I put a bead of plumbers putty around the rim of the toilet to
seal it. Depending on your floor type, you may prefer to use a
non-hardening caulk. In retrospect, I would use the caulk.
I was able to pick up and place the toilet by myself, but others may
find it easier to have a helper. If you do it yourself, it is
easiest to simply straddle the inverted toilet, tip it up on end, and
pick it up by the rim. Once you set the toilet down on the flange,
do not pick it up again or you will destroy the wax ring and have to
replace it.
Lesson #5: Make sure you remove the rag from the drain pipe
before placing the toilet in place. (Oops!)
Lesson #6: Buy extras of all parts, particularly the wax rings
and T-bolts. It is worth a few dollars to avoid a
trip to the hardware store. We lost a T-bolt through
a hole in the floor next to the drain. Having spares
saved us a lot of time.
After placing the toilet, the washers and nuts were installed on the
T-bolts and tightened alternately, a turn at a time. This is
important to avoid a gap in the wax ring on one side. It will
squish down about a quarter to a half an inch. At this point you may
want to dump some water in the bowl to prevent sewer gas from entering
the room.
I found that the metal washers supplied with the T-bolts were rather
thin and weak. I replaced them with heavier-duty washers that
wouldn't bend quite so bad.
Since the brass T-bolts will be longer than necessary, you must cut
off the excess. This is best done with one of those hack saw frames
that simply clamps the blade and lets it project out beyond the frame.
After cutting them off, the plastic caps snap on over the nuts and
washers. This assumes that you remembered to note the "THIS SIDE UP"
message on the plastic washers.
Installing the tank consists of simply setting the tank on the bowl,
installing the nuts on the bolts sticking out below, and tightening
them. Kohler says to *not* use a wrench, but only hand-tighten them.
The flex hose from the valve to the tank is simple to install if
you got the right length and fittings.
Lesson #7: There are several different sizes of fittings on the
water valves. Make sure you have the right one.
Lesson #8: The inlet point on the bottom of the new tank will
*not* be in the same place as the old one. You
may need a flex hose longer or shorter than before.
Standard lengths are 9 and 12 inches. Flex hoses
are much easier to deal with than copper tubing.
After turning the water on, it is important to check for leaks several
times over the next few days. I have not found any, however. I did
find that it takes several flushes before the tank fills to the same
level every time. I guess it is the float valve settling in.
Total work time, including two trips to the hardware store was about
four hours for the first toilet. Most of this time was spent
cleaning and preparing the floor, wall, etc. The second and third
toilets took about three to four hours total (two people working),
but had the complication of cutting carpet.
Was it worth it to do it ourselves? Should you do it yourself?
Yes, if you:
o Enjoy doing things yourself.
o Already have (or want to get) the few tools needed.
o Have another toilet available for use while you are working.
o Are a nit-picking perfectionist and don't trust a plumber
who simply wants to do it as fast as possible and get out.
Additional notes:
The wax ring seals are available plain and with an integral plastic
"horn". The horn provides a smoother path for waste as it flows from
the toilet into the drain.
There are two sizes of drain pipes: 3 inches and 4 inches. If you buy
the wax ring with horn, get the right size. One brand (Hercules
Johni-ring plus) will fit both, but you defeat the purpose of having a
4-inch drain, in my opinion. I used the Hercules Johni-ring 4-plus,
which is only for 4" lines.
Keep an extra set of parts on hand for spares, future repairs and/or
remodeling. You won't regret it.
After three weeks of Ultra Low Flushing, here are the results:
The Good:
o Saves 3.4 gallons per flush over the original equipment.
o Flushes quietly and for much less time than the old toilets.
o Cost only $8.88 (!) each after a $100.00 rebate from Los Angeles
Department of Water & Power.
o Installed easily.
o Got great satisfaction whacking the base of the old toilet
with a large hammer when the bolts wouldn't loosen. :-)
The Bad:
o Occasionally requires two flushes to completely clear the bowl.
This has happened twice in the last three weeks.
o The "water spot" in the bowl is smaller, so a fecal splatter
is more likely to be above the water line, requiring more
frequent cleaning. I suspect this is true of all ULF toilets.
The Ugly:
o Sometimes a fecal smear is left on the bottom of the bowl
which is then cleared with a later flush.
In summary, I have no complaints and consider them a good investment
in both time and money, even without the rebate. It is a quick and
painless way to meet our water reduction goals. Every homeowner
ought to do it; for a change, you can do The Right Thing without it
costing you much at all, if anything (if you have a rebate program).
Do it before water rationing hits you hard.
It does take a while to get your $100 check (which is taxable income)
from the DWP. When I called the number to tell them to send an
inspector out, they took my name and scheduled an inspection for two
weeks later. The inspector was only 20 minutes late. He verified
the model of the toilet, collected the receipt, asked the survey
questions, and gave me a copy of the rebate form. The check is
supposed to arrive in four to six weeks.
--- Alan E. Frisbie Frisbie@Flying-Disk.Com (Preferred)
--- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. or ...elroy!flying!frisbie
--- 4759 Round Top Drive or Flying!Frisbie@Elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
--- Los Angeles, CA 90065 or Frisbie%Flying@oxy.edu
--- (213) 256-2575 or ...oxy!flying!frisbie
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X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 10db0a,ee4e9f9d6f569b6 X-Google-Attributes: gid10db0a,public X-Google-Thread: 10df74,ee4e9f9d6f569b6 X-Google-Attributes: gid10df74,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 1991-03-08 14:11:46 PST Path: arc1-ca.pugleaf.net!gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!flying!frisbie From: frisbie@flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,ca.environment Subject: Re: Water Efficient Toilets Message-ID: <10725@flying-disk.com> Date: 8 Mar 91 09:48:19 GMT References: <1991Mar5.023756.25100@leland.Stanford.EDU> <JYM.91Mar5112626@remarque.berkeley.edu> <10486@flying-disk.com> Organization: Flying Disk Systems, Inc. Lines: 323