🚀 go-pugleaf

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:09:42 -0800, Jay Kadis <jay@ccrma.stanford.edu>
wrote:

>In article <ctbd3h$1j8c@odds.stat.purdue.edu>,
> hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
>
>> In article <jay-0EC958.09290427012005@news.stanford.edu>,
>> Jay Kadis  <jay@ccrma.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >In article <ctb6i3$1stu@odds.stat.purdue.edu>,
>> > hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> 
>> >> Even this is not enough, as few teachers understand the
>> >> basics of their subjects, but proceed by rote.  
>>  -- 
>> 
>> >OK, got some statistics on this?
>> 
>> How would one get statistics on this?  Let the subject matter
>> scholars question the teachers on their knowledge of the basics,
>> and you will find few in mathematics or science who would 
>> challenge this statement.  But there is no way that you would
>> get the establishment to agree to this test.  
>
>That is pure speculation on your part.

Yes it is, but for Herman, opinion IS fact.

> There are examinations that all teachers 
>must pass to become certified.  It isn't the case that anyone can walk in off 
>the street and start teaching mathematics.  Perhaps teachers are not at the same 
>level as cutting-edge researchers in the field, but that does not mean they are 
>incapable of understanding the material they teach.  I have found that teaching 
>is the best route to full understanding of the subject matter at hand.
> 
>> I have taught a few prospective teachers, and my late wife 
>> taught many of them.  Often coming home after a day of
>> teaching these, she complained of illness from that.  Not
>> all of them were bad in the advanced classes, but the one
>> time she taught prospective elementary teachers in a required
>> class, it was miserable.
>
>Until teachers are respected and paid at a level commensurate with their value 
>to society you will not get the best of the best to pursue such a career.  
>Districts with limited funds are forced to accept teachers with limited 
>abilities.  But that does not reflect the entire educational system.
>
>> The best piece of clear evidence we have is the "new math"
>> debacle of more than 40 years ago.  The teachers could not
>> handle the texts which had been tested on tens of thousands
>> of children.  There was a massive program to teach the teachers
>> of this and of high school mathematics, which ended in failure.
>> The university where I was in 1959 had a summer school for 
>> high school teachers who were supposedly the good ones; I
>> did not myself teach in that.   One of those who did stated
>> that at best 10% could learn the basic undergraduate abstract
>> mathematics courses, which should be needed to teach even
>> middle school mathematics.  Unfortunately, in the years since
>> then, those courses have declined under the pressure of 
>> giving degrees to weak students.
>
>When I see gross generalizations like you made, it causes me to suspect they are 
>made without the requisite background knowledge.  My wife is a  public 
>high-school math teacher and is pursuing a graduate degree in her field.  In her 
>department, there are two teachers with Doctorates and several more with 
>Master's degrees.  Do you think they are incapable of understanding mathematics?

Oh man..  Jay, you have to understand the nature of the man you're
talking to.  Herman's concept of "understanding" goes FAR beyond that
of any normal person, and it will not surprise me (though it may you)
when he comes back and tells you that those degrees are probably
meaningless, especially if they weren't gained 50-80 years ago - You
know, in "the good old days"?

>The problem in math and science education is directly linked to the economic 
>level of the community.  Communities with high average incomes demand good 
>schools and get them.  Communities lacking the resources get far less.  This is 
>the crux of the problem and must be addressed if we want excellence throughout 
>the educational system.  We cannot afford to let this division of society become 
>entrenched and further the separation of the haves from the have-nots.  It is 
>not solely the fault of teachers when education fails to meet our expectations.

Herman doesn't care about that.  He wants all math teachers to
"understand mathematics", which to him means that they are
mathematicians first and teachers second.  Of course HE would not
deign to participate himself in such an endeavor since HIS teaching
would be wasted by the next (obviously inferior) instructor of those
students.  Why he thinks people trained to his exacting specifications
would do what he himself is unwilling to do, never enters his mind.
He and I have had these little exchanges too many times to count.

Probably 10-15 years ago, back when I didn't know Herman at all, I was
flabbergasted when he told me I didn't understand mathematics.  Of
course he didn't know me at all, but that didn't matter any more then
than it will with your wife now.  My undergraduate degree is in
physics, and my Masters is in chemistry, I taught myself to program
computers in four languages.  I had four semesters of calculus, one of
differential equations, one of linear systems of equations.  I
actually did proofs in geometry in my high school days (that's a big
thing with Herman).  I would score 99th percentile in any test of
undergraduate algebra, trig, etc.  But Herman insisted that I didn't
understand math, so that was all that mattered <g>.  Of course he had
a slight problem in my case, since my degrees came in the 60's, but
that's not close enough to the 40's to satisfy Herman <g>!

The thing is, by Herman's standards, he is absolutely right; I am not
a mathematician, and my facility with math is in its USE as a
computational tool, and Herman finds no value to math used as a tool
for computation.  Since I don't read Peano's Postulates for fun, I can
never rise to the level of "understanding", and so, I am unqualified
to teach mathematics in elementary school or anywhere else.

So..  I leave it to you to decide if it is possible, even in a perfect
world,  to satisfy Herman's requirements for teaching math at ANY
level from elementary to high school.  After all this time, I'm quite
certain that absolutely NOTHING could ever satisfy him.