🚀 go-pugleaf

Desmond and Molly Jones wrote:
> In article <VtDni.9760$zA4.30@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,  Rudy 
> Canoza at rudy-canoza@excite.com says...
>> Desmond and Molly Jones wrote:
>>> In article <1184786861.900793.235660@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,  
>>> Pubkeybreaker at pubkeybreaker@aol.com says...
>>>> Desmond and Molly Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The result is, Edwards continued, if you live in a wealthy suburban
>>>>> area, the odds are very high that your child will get a very good
>>>>> public school education. If you live in the inner city or if you live
>>>>> in a poor rural area, the odds of that go down dramatically.
>>>> The question that should be asked is:  What is causing this problem?
>>>>
>>>> If the problem is that not enough money is being spent on inner city
>>>> schools, then this is a problem that is correctable.
>>>>
>>>> I believe, however, that this is not the root cause of the problem.
>>>> The "wealthy" suburbs are wealthy because the people living in them
>>>> are highly skilled, well educated and have high paying jobs because
>>>> they are well educated.  These people MOTIVATE their children that
>>>> education is important and push them to succeed.
>>>>
>>>> The people living in the inner city, on the other hand, are poor
>>>> PRECISELY
>>>> BECAUSE they lack education. They lack education because they did not
>>>> care about learning when they had the opportunity. They do not VALUE
>>>> education.
>>>> And they pass on this attitude to their children.   It is a self-
>>>> perpetuating problem
>>>> within inner city families.  Most of whom are single parent families
>>>> anyway because
>>>> good 'ol dad  had no sense of responsibility.  The 5 F's  apply.
>>>>
>>>> No amount of money spent on schools will educate children who just
>>>> don't give a
>>>> sh*t.   This is a cultural problem.  Bill Cosby's remarks are dead
>>>> center.
>>> You contradict yourself.
>> No, he doesn't.
>>
>>
>>> First you say that inner city kids "are poor
>>> PRECISELY BECAUSE they lack education."
>> Technically, it's because their parents lack 
>> education...and good work habits...and salable job skills.
> 
> Oh boy, it's the old argument that poverty is the poor people's fault.

To a great extent, it is.  Lots of people who were born 
poor managed to become rich.  Millions more who were 
born poor managed to become not poor entirely through 
their own efforts.  For the vast majority of poor 
people in the U.S., it is their own fault if they 
remain poor.

Anyway, dizzy, it's beside the point.  It obviously is 
not the fault of children that they are poor, nor that 
they have poor work habits and bad attitudes.  It is 
the fault of their parents.  Because of their parents' 
bad CHARACTER - yes!  I said it, dizzy - the children 
will also have bad character, and will as a result be 
shitty students.  Throwing money at this will not 
change the outcome.  You could pay inner city teachers 
half a million dollars a year, and the "students" 
emerging from their tutelage will be stupid, 
unproductive people.


>>> Then you say "No amount of 
>>> money spent on schools will educate children who just don't give a
>>> sh*t."
>> He's correct.  Another thing the poor parents of poor 
>> children 

LACK (omitted by accident in original)


>> is a good attitude about the value of 
>> education.  They don't value it, and they don't 
>> encourage their children to value it.  They don't send 
>> their children to school ready to learn.  They are 
>> uncooperative with, even belligerent toward, the 
>> teachers and school administrators.  They don't tell 
>> their children to keep their fucking mouths shut and 
>> their goddamned hands to themselves.  Their children 
>> shout out, fight, throw stuff, do everything they can 
>> to disrupt the school environment.  It's the parents' 
>> fault, but the teachers can hardly be expected to keep 
>> that in mind when some miscreant is attacking them or 
>> other students in class.
> 
> They, they, they, they.

Yep.


> You lump everyone in the city as one big 
> "they" as if country and suburban kids are somehow more gifted and 
> bright just because of where they are.

Irrelevant whine, dizzy.


>> The students don't give a shit because their parents 
>> don't give a shit.  Money spent trying to instruct 
>> these animals is an unmitigated waste.
> 
> Now that's a good one "Money spent trying to instruct 
> these animals is an unmitigated waste." Might as well just throw in the 
> towel, eh, Rudy? Maybe spend ten times as much money on prisons? Since 
> "they" are "animals", you can justify your bigotry.

No bigotry, dizzy.  The reason I don't value and 
respect these people has nothing to do with their race, 
ethnicity, creed, religion or any of the rest of those. 
  It has to do with...the content of their character. 
I am judging them on the content of their character, 
dizzy, just as MLK asked, and I find them wanting.


>>> Education and teachers are there so that kids *DO* give a shit.
>> NO.  It is not the teachers' job to motivate students. 
>>   Students need to arrive in class *already* motivated. 
>>   It is the teachers' job to educate students ready to 
>> learn, but there are very few such students in inner 
>> city schools.
> 
> 
> My, you are such an expert on the subject. Where did you get your PhD 
> in Education?

People with Ph.D. degrees in education don't know a 
thing about students arriving ready to learn.


>>> Money 
>>> buys buildings, blackboards, computers, curriculum, libraries, ball 
>>> fields, paint, tools and materials.
>> All that stuff is already there,
> 
> No it is not, at least compared to rich districts.

It is there to a sufficient degree, dizzy.


>> but it is pearls 
>> before swine as far as inner city "students" (huh) are 
>> concerned.
> 
> Oh, that's right, it's money wasted because every kid in the city is an 
> "animal."

My, dizzy, AREN'T you worked up into a lather this 
morning?!


>>> Put two and two together and you can see *why* kids in poor schools 
>>> don't give a shit. They are treated like shit.
>> They don't give a shit because their parents are shit 
>> who have already instilled shit values in the kids for 
>> five years before shoving them off to be warehoused for 
>> another 12 years.
> 
> Just like everything else in the world, Rudy, you get what you pay for.

I don't believe in throwing good money after bad.