🚀 go-pugleaf

sluka@stoch.fmi.uni-passau.de (Bernd Sluka) writes:
>In article <1991Jan28.164745.18240@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
>  crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>>
>>     Also, it is pretty easy to be anti-war when you have been protected for
>>     the last 45 years and do not have to shoulder any responsibility
>>     for this action since the good old Americans and British are
>>     ponying up once again.  Germany has dissapointed me very much

Well, it's easy to call it protection today. But remember: it started in war and
the allied forces OCCUPIED Germany. Not that I want to say they shouldn't. But
it's a bit more than protection... More like a mother staying close to her 
children to slap on their finger when they start making nonsense.

>>     by even trying to whine out of their NATO commitment to Turkey.
>>     It seems that treaty obligations mean to Germany only gimmee, 
>>     gimmee, gimmee.

I disagree. Until lately all foreign countries - especially the US of A - where
quite happy with the way we handled our army: As defensive army that was not
allowed to leave German territory. Germany should not begin another war. That
was the intention behind it and I subscribe to that point of view.

>This means, that if the USA begins a war, and you did because there existed
>other ways to get the dammned Saddam out of Kuwait, and the US started fighting

Certainly not. I'm a peaceful man (at least I hope to be), but I think there is
a point in human interaction where only brute force can stop an aggressor to
continue his way. I think Hussein had a lot of time to at least ANNOUNCE to
leave Kuweit. He did not. All politicians were talking to him, but he refused
to behave normally.

>from Turkey (Nato), that the Bundeswehr is not *allowed* by law to join.
>The US airfoce beginning fighting from Turkey, whatever the reasons and whoever
>"allowed" this, made every action from there against the Iraq not a *defence*
>action.

Depends on the definition of "defence". I defence is to wait until you get 
occupied and people get killed by mad army people, then the allied war against
Irak is no defence. But I think defence is not always to wait for the worst but
instead to start acting against an agressor even if you are not personally
attacked.

>>     Gee, I seem to remember exactly how effective the anti-war effort
>>     has been at keeping soviet troops out of the baltic states and
>>     keeping iraqi troops out of kuwait.

Well. There wasn't much action to prevent Hussein from occupying Kuwait.


>And you cannot expect a economic blocade to have success, if it only lasts
>for 4 months. But the blocade began to succed. If we would have waited for
>20 months...

Bullshit. This blockade would have been effective if EVERYBODY would have 
supported it. But there were an awful lot of paths between Iraq and it's
neighbours that were still wide open.

>>     I wonder how anti-war you 
>>     would be if America immediately withdrew from NATO prior to the roughly
>>     300,000 russian soldiers being withdrawn from the east.  You'd
>>     have to rely on the good will of the soviet army, good luck.

Well. This is one point were I never understood americans. I have always felt
more endangered by rockets stationed close to my house than ones standing
1000 miles away. Why should anybody attack us? I mean USSR leaders have never
been crazier than any other westeren leader. They were more or less the like.
Only their aims were different, but the way the were acting was quite similar.


>No. In beginning a war you are negating peace, not defending it.

Hmm. Not always. This implies that both parties behave more or less according
to the same moral and ethical rules. This is certainly not true for Hussein. I
really believe that there is no way to make peace with Hussein other than to
eliminate him. Or do you really believe there had by the possibility of making
peace with Hitler and live in peaceful coexistance with this terrorist? The
same applies to Hussein.

>>     I sincerely hope that this is not a majority opinion in the Federal
>>     Republic.  Otherwise, I would suggest ...

>I don't know. It looks like a minority opinion in our gouvernement and
>parliament. But the opposition is on my side.

Latest poll indicate that about 70%-80% of our people more or less support the
war. 

			ciao
				-Torsten
--
Torsten Beyer                      e-mail : tb@Materna.DE
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